[pcf]

I still don't like the lecture he gave before proudly announcing how much he sold it for. Considering most sold items in the sale forum usually have SOLD replacing the asking price. He made an effort to let people know. No big deal but personally I wouldn't do it.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1117 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You missed the context of my statement. I said: "There is no such thing as Todd could have made more money on this. The flip-around price will always be more because they are limited." Perhaps it was poorly worded, but what I meant was that regardless of what price Todd set for the market, his price would never match the resale price. As for the "goodness, I give up phrase" I sincerely apologize. However, do take note that I never personally attacked anyone, and thus was surprised at your remark. Now, I understand what all of you mean by sense of community, but that is something that only looks good on paper but fails in practice as far as sales go. I am not disagreeing with the idea of a sense of community, just stating that what is being hoped for just cannot happen. It is intrinsic with limited editions anything. As far as this goes: I could be mistaken, but I believe the seller initiated the sale in that case. In the case in question, the buyer initiated it with a willingness to pay more for them. If the buyer says "Name your price" and seller says "oh no, I will charge you original market price", would that be a good or bad thing? From a financial perspective, it'd be stupid to want less for an item clearly valued for more, from a social perspective, or community, then it would be great. Too many factors play into reasons for selling: some do it to upgrade, some to profit, some give stuff away for free, etc. I understand why those who flip items are looked at in disdain, but it is difficult to ascertain who bought it for just that purpose. How much time does one have to hang unto the HF2's before one is considered a flipper? A week? A month? A year? What if someone bought them with a genuine reason to keep them, but runs into financial trouble, and could use the extra funds fetched on the market now? Is the community to tell him "you are a bad person" for just trying to get out of debt by selling the HF2 at a higher price that others are willing to pay for? There's too many factors at play. Now (and here I will take a serious stand and be willing to take all that comes back to me because of it): for all those advocating sense of community, have you truly given back to this community? If so, how? I am not going to say I am an example of someone who has. To me, the true contributors are those who support the site financially, those who educate us with factual knowledge (and not all pomp and circumstance that attempts to pass itself as such), those who push the hifi world with their technical ingenuity and innovation, those who provide services (such as DIY) to the community. What have I done? Posted an opinion or two on some headphones? Lent out gear once or twice? Am I, then, a contributor? All I do is read and educate myself on what gear is out there so that I can achieve the sound I want. What am I then? I'm a damn leech...

This whole HF-2 thing is about the biggest bunch of b.s. I've ever seen.

When I was considering buying these headphones and the F1 error came up, I was almost burned at the stake for daring to ask whether anyone thought it would affect resale value. "You'd better not be buying them just to sell them for more -- these were made for the community!

" is what I was told. "We'll be watching you!" one guy even said, lol. I had no intention of buying them just to sell, that was some attack made up by "bushguy" basically out of thin air.

Then when the phones were running out and someone said he was returning his pair, a couple of us asked: "hey wait a minute - what's going to happen with those? Are they just going to be passed along to the next person on the waiting list?" Whereupon we were burned at the stake yet again, with the "how dare you, Todd is doing this out of the goodness of his heart for the community" routine. What a complete load of bull.

Now when some people say it just doesn't seem right to pawn these off at such a higher markup when they're not even all DELIVERED yet -- I mean, at least have the decency to wait until they're all shipped, for crying out loud, lol how crass can you get

-- we're now burned at the stake for that, too.

This is truly one of the most psychotic forums I've ever been on. O.o

So which way do you want it? You can't have it both ways. Were these made with a community orientation in mind, or weren't they? (hint: don't bother answering, I already know the answer.)

And btw, one more time since everyone keeps ignoring this point: I NEVER SAID people should be forced to sell any item at all for any particular price. PEOPLE CAN SELL THEIR HEADPHONES FOR ANY AMOUNT THEY WANT. All I said is that people who sell these particular phones for an obvious price gouge for profit should be banned from the forum. They are free to sell for as much as they want, and they should then also be free to be banned from the forum for it. We know that J.Grado did not appreciate the gouging that happened with the HF-1. Maybe if people had been banned for that it wouldn't be an issue now.

As for contributing financially to the "community," you've already pretty well established that there is no actual community here. There are only people wanting to get whatever they can from everyone else, and people supporting them in that. So why would I contribute financially to a "community" when in fact one doesn't even exist?

There's nothing to contribute to except a random bunch of people gathered on a website to get anything they can out of each other. I should pay for their website? That goes pretty strongly against the kind of attitude you are arguing for.

And please, don't even say you aren't. The repeated message in every other post in this very thread is to look out for #1 and get as much as you can from whomever you can get it. "This is America," people keep saying, in so many words and even in those very words (ignoring the fact, however, that a good number of people who post on the forum are actually from non-US countries

). If I were to give away my money to a forum that I can post on and read for free, then I wouldn't be very smart according to the "capitalist" rules most of you are advocating for and want to live by, would I? I'd have to say no, that wouldn't make very much sense at all. So if anything, this discussion has been very enlightening from that perspective.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't have a strong opinion about people selling their HF-2 for more money. It is going to happen sooner or later anyway. I do feel uncomfortable about what the seller said before the sale: " It's more about selling something like the HF-2 to someone who is in good standings with the community. Someone who doesn't purchase stuff off the FS forums to sell it on E-Bay for marked up prices. " If I read it correctly, somehow he thinks it's not okay to make money from selling the phones on ebay but okay to sell them to other members for " marked up prices".

Uh, what are you talking about? He pretty much said exactly the opposite. He was furthermore expressing a "pro-community" sentiment, one in effect that was saying he preferred to sell them to someone here on the forum -- a member "in good standing" -- who would appreciate the headphones, and that he had no interest in gouging other members for his own profit.

Where I come from, that's called "a nice guy." Here, though, it unfortunately just makes you a sap.

 

[Uncle Erik]

You're making way too much out of this. What happened is simple:

1. Headphones were offered for sale. Either buy them or not.

2. If you want to sell them and another buyer is willing to pay the asking price, then there is a sale.

That's it.

Why ban people who sell for more than the purchase price? That's silly.

What if I sold the HF-2 to a friend not on Head-Fi for $429. Then my friend sold them for $700. Would that be OK?

Should the HF-2 be registered like a security, with monitoring of its location and ownership?

Maybe we could have the government start issuing titles for headphones and require the registration of them. Maybe they could even make it a criminal offense to sell on the black market at a profit.

Do you actually think through the implications of your suggestions? Do you have any grasp of the law of unintended consequences?

And do you realize that some people find your journey down the slippery slope amusing?

 

[1117]

These forums are pretty crazy. The best thing about all this is that, at least, the freedom to voice one's opinion is still allowed. We agree to disagree.

I am assuming this, but it sounds like you didn't get to get your hands on an HF2, whereas I managed to find a spot in line.

Want to hear a funny story? One week before the release of the HF2, and I kid you not, literally one week before, I bought an HF1 on the FS forum here for, guess how much?

Go on, take a wild guess...

... that's right. $425! So you can imagine my surprise when, a week later, the HF2 is released for the same price, with reviews claiming it to be better than the HF1, and to top things off, the HF1's dropped in market value.

Haha! Crazy crazy crazy.

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're making way too much out of this. What happened is simple: 1. Headphones were offered for sale. Either buy them or not. 2. If you want to sell them and another buyer is willing to pay the asking price, then there is a sale. That's it. Why ban people who sell for more than the purchase price? That's silly. What if I sold the HF-2 to a friend not on Head-Fi for $429. Then my friend sold them for $700. Would that be OK? Should the HF-2 be registered like a security, with monitoring of its location and ownership? Maybe we could have the government start issuing titles for headphones and require the registration of them. Maybe they could even make it a criminal offense to sell on the black market at a profit. Do you actually think through the implications of your suggestions? Do younhave any grasp of the law of unintended consequences? And do you realize that some people find your journey down the slippery slope amusing?

I'm not really the one who made this whole "community" thing an issue. In fact, like I said before, when I came at it just like an ordinary "market" consumer and asked how the F1 would be likely to affect resale value, I was excoriated by half a dozen people at least. I was even told that I better not try to sell them for more "because we'll be watching you." Likewise for wondering about the returned ones - just really taken to task, called a "bad apple," as I recall. A bad apple, for daring to question what was such a nice gesture for "the community." Lol, are you kidding? I couldn't make this stuff up. That all came from the members here, not me.

Now I'm just trying to be consistent with what elrod-tom and the other people said about "the community," about how Grado didn't like what happened with the HF-1s, with bushguy's stern warnings that I better not dare to buy them just to sell them for more, and now I'm getting slammed for that, too, lol.

Like I said, psychotic. But don't worry -- I find it amusing, too. : D

 

[userlander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1117 /img/forum/go_quote.gif These forums are pretty crazy. The best thing about all this is that, at least, the freedom to voice one's opinion is still allowed. We agree to disagree. I am assuming this, but it sounds like you didn't get to get your hands on an HF2, whereas I managed to find a spot in line. Want to hear a funny story? One week before the release of the HF2, and I kid you not, literally one week before, I bought an HF1 on the FS forum here for, guess how much? Go on, take a wild guess... ... that's right. $425! So you can imagine my surprise when, a week later, the HF2 is released for the same price, with reviews claiming it to be better than the HF1, and to top things off, the HF1's dropped in market value. Haha! Crazy crazy crazy.

No, I canceled my order after I got heaps of crap dumped on me for violating the integrity of the "community spirit" by wondering about the resale value, and about whether I would be getting used ones turned around as new.

Well -- not only that. Some of the reports of the sound signature made me realize it was really just a FOTM.

Maybe you missed that thread, but it got so bad that I just canceled in disgust. I mean, the audacity of the guy saying I better not be buying them just to sell on the forum really turned my stomach. Now I regret that a little bit, because after reading this thread I would have no qualms whatsoever about charging literally hundreds more. That would have been a nice little profit. Oh well - maybe there will be an HF-3.

 

[userlander]

Lol - if you want some real amusement, consider this gem of a post from "ABathingApe" in the HF-2 thread when a few of us were wondering about the used ones being sold as new:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABathingApe Quote: Originally Posted by userlander So somebody owns and uses something for 1-30 days, returns it, and to you that is not "used?" sure it's "used". But it's used, lovingly I'd imagine from someone of this community

In other words, to my legitimate MARKET concerns about getting used merchandise, I was told to just subsume those valid questions in deference to "the community." It would be like someone telling you to buy something that had been used and returned to Amazon for full price just because your neighbor works there. "Don't worry - it's from the community!" Lol.

Then here's the bushguy post I was talking about, where he tries to tell me that I should be glad to get "used" at full price, and warns me against selling them on the forum for a profit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BushGuy Userlander - with your fear of possibly being sent a headphone with a few hours on them - wouldn't be more prudent for you to cancel your order? You don't seem to trust the vendor; so it would be the intelligent thing for you to do. Rest assured - if you get them and put them up for sale at a higher price - it will be noticed. I've never even met Todd - but find your "concerns" in these HF-2 threads to be something worse than naive, or nutty.

So iow again, I am "nutty" for not wanting to get used as new, which no one would want to get in any store or any other situation. But here, apparently, it was "all about the community," so I guess I shouldn't have made such a big deal about the prospect of paying full price for new (which Todd wasn't even doing, as it turns out). And I should just forget about putting them up for sale for a profit -- rest assured, it will be noticed! Lol.

I can't find the ones from elrod-tom calling me a "bad apple" who was "hurting the community" because of one reason or another -- questioning a purchase like I would do in any other capitalist, market-based situation.

Like I said, just psychotic.

 

[boomana]

This thread is now rehashing old threads that were closed for a reason, or rather, multiple reasons. This one can also be closed if members chose to take it that direction again. Your choice. Decide with every post you choose to make.

And I am stressing the word choice here.

 

[WittyzTH]

/me applaud.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif The difference between individuals and non-profit corporations is that there are tax benefits and other incentives to behave as a non-profit. If I could realize a serious tax benefit by reselling my HF-2 for $429, then maybe I would. But asking people to behave as a non-profit isn't going to work without an incentive. Is it unethical to list the HF-2 on eBay with no reserve and a starting bid of $1? If it only got one bid and sold for $1, would that "help the community?" How about if the auction ended at $429? $430? How about $700? Would an ending price of $700 be less ethical than an ending price of $430? How so? Suppose I die in a car accident tonight. My possessions would then go to my heirs. None of my heirs are members of Head-Fi. Does the ethical obligation of "fair" pricing somehow transfer to them? If they sold the HF-2 for $700, would that be OK? Why or why not? To go a step further, what if the person who bought the HF-2 for $700 from my estate wanted to sell them. Would it be OK for that person to ask for $700, or would he have an ethical obligation to sell them for $429? Oh, and suppose inflation really takes off. Two years from now, the value of $429 in 2009 dollars will be closer to $500. Considering inflation, would it be ethical to sell the HF-2 for $500, or should you have to take that as a loss? Likewise, if depreciation sets in, would it be ethical to sell at $429, even if the original selling price nets you a profit? Look, this discussion is mostly righteous onanism. There are a million more scenarios where the whole "community" thing doesn't play. There is no way to govern or control sales of something. Whining about what people should and should not do with their property is a waste of time. Let the market decide. If you missed out on the sale, had a seizure over the typo or thought the price was unfair, well, better luck next time. But if there is a HF-3, we're going to go through the same old crap about resale, price and a cosmetic issue - real or imagined.

Excellent post.

 

[MD1032]

The same thing happened with the HF-1's, and this same discussion has already happened. Some people are on this board because they love headphones, but lots of people are just out for themselves. There's nothing we can do. People have a right to sell an HF-2 if they want too. Personally, I don't think this should be discussed. The flames are already getting out of hand. Why should one idiot make us all hate each other?

 

[rhythmdevils]

how much of a community can you really expect this to be when noone really ever meets each other? I mean I have very high regards for quite a few members here, but I still don't have any idea who they are. Except for the ones I've met at meets of course, who have all been great people.