[AudioDwebe]

Question: For those who’ve listened to the inexpensive up to the $4k range or more, at what price point do you feel dismissing returns rears its huge, beautiful head?

My guess is that nowadays (c 2024) it really doesn’t cost much to get within about 95% of the stratospherically priced IEMs.

Your thoughts, please.

Thanks, and have a wonderful day.

 

[dunring]

I've had them up to $800 for a few pairs. Try the 7hz Salnotes Zero:2 and you'll have a great value for money baseline for judging everything else. I have a Moondrop Blessing 3 sitting in a box while using my $24 Zero:2 daily.
Prices don't even matter with the IEM technology advances and prices plummetting for great ones. The Truthear Zero Red or Blue are ones I have also. Those and a $9 Apple USB adapter and you can't go wrong.

 

[grumpy213]

There's diminishing returns and then there is just plain bad. I've listened to 5k sets which are just terrible and $50 sets that were good.

I feel that everyone has different hearing capabilities and more than that, listen to things in different contexts. If I am sitting down to do nothing but listen to music then I am going to be a lot more critical about whatever I am listening to than if I am commuting to my office and just having background music on.

That's where I feel that sets in different price brackets differentiate themselves in terms of the minutiae of detail they are able to provide and their technical capabilities more broadly. I find that most sub-$1000 IEMs that I have tried usually do decently well in projecting a wide stage but it usually is flat. Stepping up will usually create a greater sense of depth. Whether that is worth the price differential are worth it to you is between you and your wallet.

Diminishing returns for someone who just wants to fill in with background noise while they work kicks in a lot earlier than those who are doing nothing but listening to music in their spare time as a main source of leisure.

TL;DR: Your mileage may vary, preference, etc. etc.

 

[Bosk]

For most music lovers I think it's absolutely worth spending a couple of hundred dollars, on say a set of earphones like the ISN Neo5s or Simgot EA1000s which are two IEMs that've recently impressed me that I could probably live with as daily drivers.

As you start pushing up towards the USD $500 mark on sets like the Penon 10th Anniversary for instance you can obtain a bit more refinement, perhaps technical prowess is little bit stronger across the board (slightly higher resolution, larger soundstage, cleaner imaging and such) but even by this point the differences won't be night & day.

Past $500 or so I think diminishing returns really do start kicking in quite hard. Which is not to say you won't still see dramatic improvements in certain areas by spending thousands of dollars on a set of earphones because you certainly can, however I think new hobbyists often assume they'll experience major across-the-board improvements in every conceivable sonic area by spending more money, and things don't necessarily work that way - even the most expensive IEMs usually have shortcomings.

Diminishing returns are extremely hard to quantify in percentage terms however because we all hear differently and have very different sonic tastes & priorities.

Of course there's another danger worth discussing. Being trapped in a cycle of refusing to spend more than $X amount on a single pair of IEMs because you've been told spending more is a waste of money, yet becoming less & less satisfied with the overall level of sound quality attainable at that pricepoint - this is why many people amass hordes of earphones under $500, forever seeking a non-existant holy grail thats delivers champagne performance on a beer budget when they'd actually be better off saving up for something that will truly satisfy them.

The problem is until you've sampled a healthy amount of what's out there you simply won't know how much you need to spend to find real satisfaction. That's why the best advice when you're starting out is always to visit an audio dealer close to you, or attend a trade show, perhaps meet up with some local Head-Fiers in your area, anything at all you can do to demo as many earphones as possible without spending money. Then you'll have a MUCH better idea how much you need to spend to be content.

 

[psy472]

You have to get creative to make the best sound. Lazy people with money will buy the expensive gear because those have preset tunings/coloring, basically all the DACs/Amps/headphones/iems. If you have a decently quiet Dac, an EQ tuner, and a balanced Amp with an HP around 500 bucks you can adjust the settings to fit your audio needs. Which is why I just buy Schiit stuff and not bother with the super kilobucks stuff.

Many people including me sometimes buy very expensive stuff just to “fit in” in a certain group. That’s part of life I guess.

 

[o0genesis0o]

Question: For those who’ve listened to the inexpensive up to the $4k range or more, at what price point do you feel dismissing returns rears its huge, beautiful head?

My guess is that nowadays (c 2024) it really doesn’t cost much to get within about 95% of the stratospherically priced IEMs.

Your thoughts, please.

Thanks, and have a wonderful day.

Assume that you define “return” as the ratio between “performance” and price tag, meaning how much “performance” you can gain with an increase in dollar you put in. Then, diminishing return is reached when the ratio drops below a certain threshold.

Two questions would arise:

1. How do you assess and rank IEMs “performance”?
2. How high is your threshold?

For the first question, I believe that experience plays a critical role in performance assessment. The more you dissect and describe sonic performance, the more you are sensitive to the differences. And you won’t know how the “next level” sounds until you have listened to it yourself.

For the second question, the threshold is somewhat aligns with the experience and expectations. If you don’t care / don’t know, you reach the threshold sooner. Some hardcore audio geeks keep going when most have already tapped out, simply because they are not satisfied.

So, back to your question:

• Long answer: it depends on how enthusiastic and picky you are about audio. More enthusiasm = more chance to gain experience = better appraisal = higher expectations = higher threshold.
• Simple answer: IMHO, the sweet spot is a respectable kilobuck IEM (think of the likes of Monarch III, U4s, and the ones half step above or below) + a “mid-fi” DAP (FiiO M11s, Shanling M6U, iBasso DX260, Hiby R6 P2) or battery powered DAC/amp like Topping G5 or FiiO BTR7.

 

[Rockwell75]

Everyone will have their own answer to and perspective on this. There is a famous quote from Paul McCartney where he was asked what was the nicest stereo he's ever heard and his answer was "whatever is playing at the time". Back during more financially tight times I was totally happy for a couple years with a $50 pair of Sony IEMs I bought in an airport vending machine. Now that I have more freedom to invest into this hobby and have experienced sets at every conceivable price I have found for myself that diminishing returns kick in large at about the $1-$1.5k mark, which is to say that is consistently about the point at which I stop hankering for subtle improvements here and there. The highest price sets earn their value by doing something unique or excelling along some particular tehnical metric that may not even be a priority of point of interest for others. All things considered there is greatness to be had at every price tier, relatively speaking. This is truly a golden age for portable audio.

 

[KinGensai]

Question: For those who’ve listened to the inexpensive up to the $4k range or more, at what price point do you feel dismissing returns rears its huge, beautiful head?

My guess is that nowadays (c 2024) it really doesn’t cost much to get within about 95% of the stratospherically priced IEMs.

Your thoughts, please.

Thanks, and have a wonderful day.

To me, diminishing returns hit the hardest at the $500 range with the Variations. This got challenged later when the Orchestra Lite hit the field and brought that bar down to $250.

To hit the 95% threshold, $1k is about where I think you need to be. This is framed in my mind to 100% being "perfect" performance, as in no technical flaws being perceivable in actual use. Variations is around 90% to me because it is transparent most of the time, but shows a lack of instrument separation during very busy sections of music and clips occasionally when playing bassy tracks due to what sounds like overexcursion of the LCP DD driver. The Monarch Mk2 was much better in those terms, easily around 95% only because the DD was the weakest link in that IEM.

I now have IEMs at the $2k+ range that I think hit 100% and I'm pretty much satisfied. They are not all that much better than the Orchestra Lite most of the time, but they also never choke no matter how demanding the music gets, and that is worth the expenditure to me. I imagine most non-audiophile people would be satisfied forever with the Orchestra Lite's level of performance.

 

[Ryokan]

The sets I own well over $1000 give more crispness (fast transients) pronounced layering and better instrument separation. Once you've heard good quality gear (which often means expensive) the niggles on cheaper sets become more apparent.

 

[Tanalasta]

At the top end it's more about nuance and tuning.
- Do you have the library and DAC/DAP/Amplifier to drive your chosen IEM and does it synergise well with your own personal tastes, equipment and library.
- Different top tier IEM's play to difference strengths and preferences.

At the low end - well - there's the earbuds that used to come standard with the Sony CD players and EarPods.

$200 bring you the Apple AirPods Pro Gen 2

With wine, we have the WSET tasting guide to evaluate quality of an IEM. I'm uncertain if we have a similar evaluation standard. However, very loosely:
Bass/Sub bass
Mids / Vocals
Highs/Treble/Extension
Detail/Resolution
Air/Soundstage/Placement
Overall tuning, balance and cohesion

Lower end IEM's will usually have significant deficiencies in several of the above.

As we approach $500 - 1000, loosely we may reach 50-80% of the way there. I used to be (and am still very happy) with my Andromeda 2020. They sound lovely with vocals, acoustic. Detail and soundstage were near the best in class in its day. But there is BA timbre and bass quality and impact is left wanting. You don't listen to dance/trance with the Andromeda 2020. But for what I listen to, it was lovely.

$2000 brings you IEM's like the U12 where many of the boxes are ticked and we are >80% of the way there.

$Summit-fi$ is chasing the end 5-10%. Some are more well rounded e.g. Trailli has a wonderful cohesion and can be enjoyed with most music types ; whilst others can be more polarising towards a certain tuning or genre. But you wouldn't expect significant technical deficiencies at this level.

As for value for money ; I suggest exploring the second hand market. Some bargains can be had. And you can ride the hype rollercoaster vicariously, wait for it to land. Popular IEM's purchased second hand usually can be sold on without too much of a loss.

We can probably apply a similar analogy to wine. It's rare to have a 'bad' $1000 wine provided it is in reasonable drinking window and stored well. But you may not appreciate the nuances and complexity of it ... unless you do. And if I told you this was Chateau Lafite ; there'll probably be a subconscious bias that 'this must be a stellar wine'. Whereas if I served it to my parents who drink Penfolds Koonunga Hill Shiraz and think its' the bees knees, it would be an absolutely torrid waste of time and money. My sweet spot actually is the Mt Edelstone Shiraz ($200 for reds ; but anything >$75 is usually very very acceptable) but other people would probably disagree!

I have slowly bracket crept up to the $2000+ mark - i.e. The Mest Mk III ticks a lot of boxes for me and purchased second hand for less ; represented really good value for money. Thank you (you know who you are!)

 

[Hypops]

Everyone will have their own answer to and perspective on this.

Exactly. "Diminishing returns" is a bit of a red herring since everyone's going to have very different expected "returns" from their gear purchases.

The concept of diminishing returns also assumes that spending more money should get you something "better," rather than simply something different. I mean, just look at how many folks around here with multiple $2k+ headphones still use and love their HD 600. It also depends on which kind of gear you're talking about. For me, returns diminish rapidly at ~$200 on things like interconnects, but I have yet to find any sign of diminishing returns on things like speakers, headphones, and turntables well into the multiple thousands of dollars range.

As for IEMs in particular, "diminishing returns" is a rapidly moving target. Newer and cheaper IEM technologies are seemingly popping up every few months, knocking cost-to-quality judgments totally out of whack. For as much as I appreciate what high-end IEMs can do, I still play in the kiddie pool in terms of what I own. I'm waiting out the storm.

 

[psy472]

It depends on your own income and how much you are comfortable spending. Having 100k laying around vs 1k makes a difference in “diminishing return”.

 

[feverfive]

One's level of disposable income will, in the vast majority of cases IMO, determine such a point of equilibrium. Such is the world. YMMV

 

[HappyDragon]

For my personal taste, I find the Hifiman Sundara ($300) marks the threshold of diminishing returns.

 

[theveterans]

Question: For those who’ve listened to the inexpensive up to the $4k range or more, at what price point do you feel dismissing returns rears its huge, beautiful head?

My guess is that nowadays (c 2024) it really doesn’t cost much to get within about 95% of the stratospherically priced IEMs.

Your thoughts, please.

Thanks, and have a wonderful day.

Diminishing returns in IEM is already at the $20-$50 ChiFi IEMs, and above that it goes downhill pretty quickly. The last 5% is just PURE preference especially in the summit level. Me personally, I'm hitting 95% of Orioulus Trailli and ALL of 4K IEMs and up with my Campfire Bonneville, but for others, a Truthear Zero Red sound better than the Bonneville since they dislike the sound signature of Bonneville quite profoundly