[Happy Camper]

I will say the same thing that I said when the HE-1000 was announced:
If you cant afford it, ignore it (thats what I will do), if you can afford it, then start wondering if its worth it.
Personally, I dont know If I could buy a HP for more than 1000 bucks, unless I had so much money that I literally would not know what to do with it.

I might stretch it to 1500 if for example I fall in love with a LCD-X or a HD800, but at some point, you realize that you are paying a very large sum of money (for people like me) for a "toy" that can break anytime.
I must admit that If I had millions of dollars, id probably buy 3 of those, even at 100.000 dollars..... but since I need to come back to reality, Ill be looking at HD800 vs Stax 207 most likely.

Makes a used pair of modded HE-6 a real bargain.

 

[headinclouds]

  Re point that Sennheiser are on the expensive side. I don't agree. The HD800 seems cheap to me for the high level it attains and the way it gets 'compared' to phones 3 or 4 times it's price.

Steady on astrostar you’ll be giving them ideas (to put the price up).  I'm going to play Devil's advocate here.
 
The price of TOTL headphones is getting silly and the Head-fi community ought to be talking the price down and refusing to accept these prices. 
 
There is very little material content in a headphone but I realise a lot of time and intellectual investment is involved.   Some phones such as the limited edition AT W3000ANV are a work of art with beautiful workmanship and lacquered wood, lambskin pads, magnesium chassis etc.  But the HD800 is a mass produced phone which does not use particularly fancy materials and they have had plenty of sales to recoup the engineering cost.
 
Senny forced dealers to sell at a price although price fixing is not allowed in the EU.  I recall it sold for 999 euro on mainland and £999 in UK although within the same market.   I believe it was priced at a similar equivalent price in the US.
 
Now even selling it at 999 euro the dealer selling price is 832 before VAT.
 
The dealer might have paid 550 euro for it and Senny might have made it for 100euro.  They have sold tens of thousands of them.
 
The excessive prices being asked for the HE1K and Absess,  etc are perhaps examples of people trying to recoup a lot of development hours on a small sales volume.
 
Edit.  i would like to apologise for the grumpy tone.  It is a cold wet Bank Holiday here so what do you expect?

 

[jibzilla]

   
I don't know where you're getting all this stuff from without hearing it or at least seeing a measurement first.  I can assure you the HD800 connected to anything has nothing on the original Orpheus.  I consider the HE90 to be the best headphone ever made, with a few Stax HPs battling for the #2 spot.  The HE90 is an extremely accurate headphone despite its reputation as being "too warm/romantic" etc.  That character actually lies with the stock HEV90 (which I like).  The HE90 doesn't exhibit that kind of presentation when paired with a more neutral sounding amp like the T2 or even Aristaeus.  You guys can look up measurements for the HE90 and you'll find it probably has the flattest measuring compensated FR of any HP with an extremely fast decay as well.  It's as accurate as headphones have come thus far.
 
I don't think the included DAC is a big deal - it's more of an added convenience.  If you look at the back of the unit you'll see there are analog inputs, meaning you can connect a DAC to it like any other amp.  The same is true of the original Orpheus.  I'm sure most serious audiophiles will use the unit in that manner, but for the rich guy who's buying it as more of a show piece they'll probably use the included DAC to make things simpler/more eye appealing.
 
 
On to my ramblings about this thing...
 
I think it looks pretty awful.  It definitely looks like it belongs on a vanity in Scarface or something.  The marble makes it look pretty tacky, and the plastic tube covers make it look cheap.  Not a fan of the permanent headphone box either.
 
The marble will make sure it doesn't block outside interference, so there could be instances where the owner gets noise entering the signal which is a joke at the expected price point.  It also looks like there is no heatsinking or venting anywhere on this thing, so probably pretty limited on current.  A poster here mentioned that this will swing way more voltage than the HEV90, but that doesn't really mean much in terms of sound quality.  More voltage swing just means a higher max volume.  Ask anybody who upgraded their super high voltage swing, low current Koss E90 about this.  For a great read, check out JimL's posts elsewhere on the current demands of an electrostatic headphone.  Of course, this may not be too current limited, but it's not looking good from the get go.
 
This is using 8x 12AX7 tubes.  Does that mean those are the output tubes and this is actually using a solid state input stage?
 
I noticed the 8 pin connector, and the arc protection sounds interesting.  I'll have to read up on how that worked in the ESL63s.
 
Regarding the headphone, the inner and outer grills look very similar to those found on the HE90.  The pads on these are much thicker (in terms of outer radius - inner radius) than the HE90 pads, which are my favorite pads for comfort.  Looking at the pads, these might have smaller drivers than the HE90.  2.4 micron thickness is an interesting choice and I'm not quite sure why Senn decided to go with a film that thick.  The HE90 used 1 micron diaphragms, and Stax have usually used 1-1.5 micron (seemingly settling on 1.35 micron) thick diaphragms.  In fact, this could be the thickest diaphragm on an electrostatic HP since the old round Stax (mid-1980's).  The 100kHz thing is probably at like 20 dB down, since tests on diyaudio have shown the 6dB rolloff point for a diaphragm this thick is much lower. 
 
One other thing that doesn't make much sense to me is their use of platinum for the coating.  It's awesome that they're sputtering the diaphragm since that will get the weight down compared to a spray/liquid/powder, but there seem to be better choices.  Platinum is pretty heavy (about the same as gold, which is what the HE90 used) but not as conductive as something like gold/silver/copper/aluminum.  Stat HPs use a very high resistance coating on the diaphragm, so in order for those very constructive elements to achieve the same resistance you have to use much less sputtering and thus the moving mass of the diaphragms ends up being lighter.  If they wanted to use an element that has a similar conductivity to platinum, they could have chosen beryllium which is way, way lighter.  It seems to me the choice of platinum was more for marketing purposes.  Maybe they saw 2 Chainz' Orpheus video and decided to market to the wealthy rap game.

 
So I can not speculate on the new Orpheus but you can tell me that a hd800 connected to anything will not best the Orpheus. Doubt you will find a Pinnacle or even a Teton owner that is disappointed with the sound out of their hd800. Probably would not trade it for a orginal Orpheus or new Orpheus if they were told they could never own it again. I know I wouldn't. When you factor in a tube collection the Pinnacle/hd800 is pretty much as expensive as the original Orpheus when it first came out. No dac either. As Harry already said, "I don't trust like that." Got any skittles?
 
P.S. Sennheiser really and I mean really opened the door for critiquing by letting only 1 headfier listen to this. This headphone should be called Strawberry Milk. 

 

[Peti]

  Steady on astrostar you’ll be giving them ideas (to put the price up).  I'm going to play Devil's advocate here.
 
The price of TOTL headphones is getting silly and the Head-fi community ought to be talking the price down and refusing to accept these prices. 
 
There is very little material content in a headphone but I realise a lot of time and intellectual investment is involved.   Some phones such as the limited edition AT W3000ANV are a work of art with beautiful workmanship and lacquered wood, lambskin pads, magnesium chassis etc.  But the HD800 is a mass produced phone which does not use particularly fancy materials and they have had plenty of sales to recoup the engineering cost.
 
Senny forced dealers to sell at a price although price fixing is not allowed in the EU.  I recall it sold for 999 euro on mainland and £999 in UK although within the same market.   I believe it was priced at a similar equivalent price in the US.
 
Now even selling it at 999 euro the dealer selling price is 832 before VAT.
 
The dealer might have paid 550 euro for it and Senny might have made it for 100euro.  They have sold tens of thousands of them.
 
The excessive prices being asked for the HE1K and Absess,  etc are perhaps examples of people trying to recoup a lot of development hours on a small sales volume.

Yep, the HD-800 is mass produced IN GERMANY. Needless to get into details regarding the wage differences of german or, let's say, chinese workforce. But the more you study that model (HD-800) the more you can justify the asking price. The Sennheiser engineers truly tried to do their utmost here to produce a TOP model which is (relatively) mass produced (compared to the Orpheus anyway) with a relatively low price tag. I mean the HD-800 is definitely considered less pricey than the later coming Abyss or the new HIFIMAN.
 
Just grab any magazine/article with hi-end headphones and you will see the HD-800 on the cover.
 
Other than that I fully agree with you: as long as people will buy up the 5k Abyss (which never made it to the Innerfidelity "Wall of Fame" for instance) et al., the producers will keep coming up with newer and newer models costing more and more.
 
But to counter myself within one post, there are Bugattis outthere for 2000000$ and there's people who will buy them up. Also, there's "Patek", "A. Lange und Söhne", etc. watches with asking prices between 2-4000000$. So as much as I want to blame the headphone producers, I, realistically, can't.

 

[money4me247]

  Yep, the HD-800 is mass produced IN GERMANY. Needless to get into details regarding the wage differences of german or, let's say, chinese workforce. But the more you study that model (HD-800) the more you can justify the asking price. The Sennheiser engineers truly tried to do their utmost here to produce a TOP model which is (relatively) mass produced (compared to the Orpheus anyway) with a relatively low price tag. I mean the HD-800 is definitely considered less pricey than the later coming Abyss or the new HIFIMAN.
 
Just grab any magazine/article with hi-end headphones and you will see the HD-800 on the cover.
 
Other than that I fully agree with you: as long as people will buy up the 5k Abyss (which never made it to the Innerfidelity "Wall of Fame" for instance) et al., the producers will keep coming up with newer and newer models costing more and more.
 
But to counter myself within one post, there are Bugattis outthere for 2000000$ and there's people who will buy them up. Also, there's "Patek", "A. Lange und Söhne", etc. watches with asking prices between 2-4000000$. So as much as I want to blame the headphone producers, I, realistically, can't.

 
Agreed. the HD800's price point is not unreasonable compared to other less than stellar headphones that come out & command premium price points. the general trend for luxury headphones is jacking up the prices... often without any real tangible sound quality improvements. the industry will milk the new interest in headphones as long as they can though.
 
I think it should be easily possible to get extremely competitive flagship quality headphones out nowadays at the $1.2ish price range. However, even if doable, competing companies have to hit around the $1.5k standard set by the HD800 to be taken seriously as a flagship, which is a bit sad as my personal experience has shown that $$$ does not correlate well with sound quality. A lot of the differences between current flagships are more "flavoring" differences (aka sound signature/FR response differences) rather than demonstrating a new level of performance in technical attributes. A bit sad that the 5 year old HD800 is still likely the king of soundstage & imaging of its price bracket up to the $2k range. Other headphone companies really need to step up their game with their flagships & begin offering more than differences in tonal presentation/sound signature for even more impressive technical performance.
 
imo. ymmv.

 

[raypin]

mmm.....all this talk of price is beginning to really bore me. Here's something new to discuss and more appropriate for this thread: For those lucky enough to have extensively auditioned or own(ed) the Orpheus, what do you want or expect  Sennheiser to address in the Orpheus 2 (SQ/performance-wise, of course) ????

 

[JK1]

   
Agreed. the HD800's price point is not unreasonable compared to other less than stellar headphones that come out & command premium price points. the general trend for luxury headphones is jacking up the prices... often without any real tangible sound quality improvements. the industry will milk the new interest in headphones as long as they can though.
 
I think it should be easily possible to get extremely competitive flagship quality headphones out nowadays at the $1.2ish price range. However, even if doable, competing companies have to hit around the $1.5k standard set by the HD800 to be taken seriously as a flagship, which is a bit sad as my personal experience has shown that $$$ does not correlate well with sound quality. A lot of the differences between current flagships are more "flavoring" differences (aka sound signature/FR response differences) rather than demonstrating a new level of performance in technical attributes. A bit sad that the 5 year old HD800 is still likely the king of soundstage & imaging of its price bracket up to the $2k range. Other headphone companies really need to step up their game with their flagships & begin offering more than differences in tonal presentation/sound signature for even more impressive technical performance.
 
imo. ymmv.

$1500 or more for headphones to get decent sound quality??????? Why can't we get nice sounding headphones that sell for $100? Headphones aren't made of gold, and most headphones probably use less than $1 of silver to make.

 

[luberconn]

gold headphones would be very heavy and uncomfortable for long sessions. 

 

[OddE]

  $1500 or more for headphones to get decent sound quality??????? Why can't we get nice sounding headphones that sell for $100? Headphones aren't made of gold, and most headphones probably use less than $1 of silver to make.

 
-I guess your question is at least in part rhetorical, but I'll bite:
 

1. As you approach the top tier, the law of diminishing returns kicks in; all the easy (cheap) ways of addressing sound quality have been exhausted and the expensive ones remain.
2. As you approach the top tier, (at least in part) headphones cease to be headphones and begin to resemble luxury goods; luxury goods, per definition, are over-priced.
3. Top tier headphones sell in smaller volumes, so R&D and tooling costs need to be recouped over fewer sold units. Go figure.
4. Related to 2nd point above - my bet would be that the bulk of the demographic willing to spend $1k on a headphone would also be willing to spend $2k. Hence, price accordingly

 
Good thing is, you can get solid performance for significantly less. Depends on budget and standards, of course, but IMHO the HD650 provides a very good taste of what the really high end is like - and they retail locally at $320 or so. Add $100 for a cheap, but decent amp and you're probably 95% of the way to the summit (please ignore the ridiculousness of trying to quantify sound quality in percentages...) - for 5% of the cost...

 

[OddE]

 
Edit.  i would like to apologise for the grumpy tone.  It is a cold wet Bank Holiday here so what do you expect?

 
-At least you've got a bank holiday. Around here it is only cold and wet.

 

[goropeza]

$1500 or more for headphones to get decent sound quality??????? Why can't we get nice sounding headphones that sell for $100? Headphones aren't made of gold, and most headphones probably use less than $1 of silver to make.

The word "decent" is clearly subjective. When we say "decent" in a thread like this, talking about an upcoming summit-fi headphone, we actually mean "decent in comparison to other top tier high end headphones".

 

[Me x3]

 
Yep, the HD-800 is mass produced IN GERMANY. Needless to get into details regarding the wage differences of german or, let's say, chinese workforce. But the more you study that model (HD-800) the more you can justify the asking price. The Sennheiser engineers truly tried to do their utmost here to produce a TOP model which is (relatively) mass produced (compared to the Orpheus anyway) with a relatively low price tag. I mean the HD-800 is definitely considered less pricey than the later coming Abyss or the new HIFIMAN.
 
Just grab any magazine/article with hi-end headphones and you will see the HD-800 on the cover.
 
Other than that I fully agree with you: as long as people will buy up the 5k Abyss (which never made it to the Innerfidelity "Wall of Fame" for instance) et al., the producers will keep coming up with newer and newer models costing more and more.
 
But to counter myself within one post, there are Bugattis outthere for 2000000$ and there's people who will buy them up. Also, there's "Patek", "A. Lange und Söhne", etc. watches with asking prices between 2-4000000$. So as much as I want to blame the headphone producers, I, realistically, can't.

The fact that someone decided to charge 5k for the Abyss, doesn't make the HD800 cheaper.
 
I can spend 3k making the X-headphone, charge 20k for it, and you'll come and say: I can't blame Abyss producers, specially when the X-headphone is 20k.
 
That's kind loosing perspective in my view.
 
The HD800 is similar to DT880 in terms of tonal balance, just a bit better.
And it's similar to K702 in terms of soundstage, just a bit better here as well.
 
So at this point you have to pay 5 times DT880's / K702's price to get the slightly better HD800.
HD800 is still a quite expensive headphone in my book.
 
Then there's the SR-009 that's just a bit better than HD800 at best, or even a side-grade for some, and it's 3 times HD800's price, so that's even more expensive.
If you have the money, and will enjoy it then why not?
 
But that doesn't change the fact that price/performance ratio is not that great.

 

[icebear]

  I'm at Sennheiser's "Reshaping Excellence" event in London. Sennheiser had a press event, and showed this!
 
Did they just reveal the successor to the old Orpheus?
 
More to follow as we find out more.
 

 
Have you listened to this new headphone or was it a peep show only

?
I take it that everybody and his grandmother are curious to get some listening impressions and not just 30+ pages of speculation...

 

[Frosty3258]

mmm.....all this talk of price is beginning to really bore me. Here's something new to discuss and more appropriate for this thread: For those lucky enough to have extensively auditioned or own(ed) the Orpheus, what do you want or expect  Sennheiser to address in the Orpheus 2 (SQ/performance-wise, of course) ????

+1

 

[rfan8312]

^Sorry last one.

I was planning on buying a sports car but now it'll have to wait thanks to this new Sennheiser.

I just really wish it had been dipped in gold more.

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