[FauDrei]

IMO quite better.
 
Not that V3 was bad, but V5 is more detailed without being harsh, soundstage is wider, instrument positioning is more precise. OTOH - V3 was more forgiving on bad recordings.
 
EDIT: Just realized that DSP-1 V5 comment was reffering to diamond differential "musical" A-GD DACs. FWIW my comments were based on V3 vs. V5 comparisons on "neutral" RE-1/RE-7.

 

[vrln]

Speaking of pre-amps, I can highly recommend Audio-gd´s preamps based on what the Phoenix can do. They are magic with my Genelecs. Actually I kinda prefer them to my current headphones! Also found PoisonMates comment interesting... The V3 was definately more "musical" in Kingwa´s terms than the V5 with my REF7. Now the REF7 is a really, really neutral machine. If it does the same with products in the musical line, I could imagine it being a bit of an odd match for the DD buffer.
 
*disclaimer: pure speculation, unfortunately I haven´t heard a REF8 or 9 yet, would definately like to though!

 

[PoisonMate]

Seen the progression from Ver.3 to Ver.4 then to Ver.5 on the DD series and found the Ver.4 did the most to retain the DD characteristics. V5 has more details but crossed the line into "neutral" territory.

On the Ver.5 upgrade for the "neutral" series, the improvements have been quite welcomed.
 
Quote:

IMO quite better.
 
Not that V3 was bad, but V5 is more detailed without being harsh, soundstage is wider, instrument positioning is more precise. OTOH - V3 was more forgiving on bad recordings.
 
EDIT: Just realized that DSP-1 V5 comment was reffering to diamond differential "musical" A-GD DACs. FWIW my comments were based on V3 vs. V5 comparisons on "neutral" RE-1/RE-7.

 

[realmassy]

Warm and neutral at the same time....??
Quote:

My musical series AG DAC is warm, soft, analytical, and neutral.   Have you heard one?

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

Speaking of pre-amps, I can highly recommend Audio-gd´s preamps based on what the Phoenix can do. They are magic with my Genelecs. Actually I kinda prefer them to my current headphones! Also found PoisonMates comment interesting... The V3 was definately more "musical" in Kingwa´s terms than the V5 with my REF7. Now the REF7 is a really, really neutral machine. If it does the same with products in the musical line, I could imagine it being a bit of an odd match for the DD buffer.
 
*disclaimer: pure speculation, unfortunately I haven´t heard a REF8 or 9 yet, would definately like to though!

AGD says that the Roc is based off of the Phoenix, I wonder how close it comes to the Phoenix as a stand alone preamp.
 
Then there is the musical Roc-SA how does it compare to the neutral Roc.
 
Maybe its all mute seeing that they are discontinued.
 
 

 

[tim3320070]

Quote:

Speaking of pre-amps, I can highly recommend Audio-gd´s preamps based on what the Phoenix can do. They are magic with my Genelecs. Actually I kinda prefer them to my current headphones! Also found PoisonMates comment interesting... The V3 was definately more "musical" in Kingwa´s terms than the V5 with my REF7. Now the REF7 is a really, really neutral machine. If it does the same with products in the musical line, I could imagine it being a bit of an odd match for the DD buffer.
 
*disclaimer: pure speculation, unfortunately I haven´t heard a REF8 or 9 yet, would definately like to though!

Agreed on the Phoenix preamp. My old Mirage towers with the Phoenix still sounds better than any headphone I have heard.
And I upgraded to the V5 on my Ref-8 and found it an improvement, more focused and separation of the individual parts within the music, which to me, sounds more open and involving.
 
Dynobot- you mean moot, not mute.

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

 
Dynobot- you mean moot, not mute.

Yeah your right....my brain is in audio mode.
 
I'm writing a paper right now and almost wrote treble instead of trouble.
 
 
 

 

[FauDrei]

AGD says that the Roc is based off of the Phoenix, I wonder how close it comes to the Phoenix as a stand alone preamp.

 
This would be a question for Tim... He actually is the only one that had both.
 
Personally, I'm quite satisfied with Roc. It is just that, having "maxed" it's PSU caps (in one of my Roc mod stages) I've realized how much PSU improvements affect final SQ... and when you see Phoenix's double stage, cascaded, parallel PSU in comparison with single stage parallel Roc PSU... it makes you wonder... and it makes you want Phoenix. Purely on topological level Phoenix is marvelous.
 
As for discontinuing of Roc/Roc SA... you can look at it this way: Yes, you do not have Roc anymore, but you have Roc with integrated DAC - NFB-10[xx] for approximately same amount of money.
 
Now only to persuade KingWa to put RCA/XLR inputs... preamp button is already there.

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

This would be a question for Tim... He actually is the only one that had both.
 
Personally, I'm quite satisfied with Roc. It is just that, having "maxed" it's PSU caps (in one of my Roc mod stages) I've realized how much PSU improvements affect final SQ...

Which has the most robust PSU Roc or Roc-SA??? 
 
Or are they equal but different??

 

[FauDrei]

Which has the most robust PSU Roc or Roc-SA??? 
 
Or are they equal but different??

 
I'd say Roc SA has more substantial PSU (look at big caps and "underboard" regulators around r-core transformer). Only SA's PSU does not do pure class A - thus hairdryer driving power.

 

[Dynobot]

Specs comparison between the Roc, Roc-SA, and Phoenix
 

	Roc	Roc-SA	Phoenix
S/N/ Ratio	116db (Input Load 600 Ohms)	116db (Input Load 600 Ohms)	118db (Input Load 600 Ohms)
Output	20V RMS (Max )	36V RMS	24V RMS (Max )
HP Output Power	25 ohm: 750MW 62 ohm: 1800MW 100 ohm: 2500MW 300 ohm: 1350MW 600 ohm: 700MW	High Gain , 5VRMS input 25 ohm: 9W 60 ohm: 9W 100 ohm: 9W 300 ohm: 3W 600 ohm: 1.5W Low gain, 5VRMS input 25 ohm: 4.5W 60 ohm: 4.5W 100 ohm: 4.5W 300 ohm: 1.5W 600 ohm: 0.75W	25 ohm: 1000MW 62 ohm: 2500MW 100 ohm: 3000MW 300 ohm: 1800MW 600 ohm: 900MW

 

[Dynobot]

Power supply seems to be the difference between the Neutral Series and the Diamond Differential Series, not only in Head-amps but in everything too bad the DD is going away.  Seems like they employed even more robustness than the standard robustness of Neutral Series products.
 
Ref 7 Power supply:
 
[size=10pt]More than[/size][size=10pt] 50,000uf[/size][size=10pt] audio grade NOVER capacitors are used to ensure ample and smooth power feed. The NOVER capacitors are specially custom order by NOVER (U.K.) according to Audio GD’s requirement. In total[/size][size=10pt] 21 PSU groups are applied. [/size] [size=10pt] 19 groups of parallel voltage regulators are combined into two groups of cascade-like parallel voltage regulators to lower the internal resistance and to purify power supply. [/size]
 
Ref 8 Power supply:
 
[size=10pt]More than [/size][size=10pt]65,000uf[/size][size=10pt] audio grade NOVER capacitors are used to ensure ample and smooth power feed. The NOVER capacitors are specially made by NOVER (U.K.) according to Audio GD’s requirement. 21 groups of voltage regulators are combined into two-stage regulators, separately feeding power to different circuit parts for a pure power supply.[/size]

 

[tim3320070]

Quote:

AGD says that the Roc is based off of the Phoenix, I wonder how close it comes to the Phoenix as a stand alone preamp.
 
 
 

Never tried the Roc as a preamp but the main difference I heard through headphones was the wider and deeper soundstage of the Phoenix, it was quite apparent to me after listening to the Roc for months. Nothing dramatic but it's there.
 

 

[vrln]

That makes sense... The superior PSU should do exactly that. Actually that´s the difference Kingwa told me they have when I got my Phoenix. So the Roc is pretty close - it´s amazing value.

 

[regal]

Quote:

No never heard one, it would be interesting to determine its sonic signature in my system.  I would assume that all DD "musical" products have the same qualities.
 
Warm, soft, analytical, and neutral reminds me of my Anthem Preamp I used to own, it lacked nothing that a SS pre had, but added just a touch or warm and musicality to the mix.
 
Maybe a musical product is in my future.
 
 
Quote:

My musical series AG DAC is warm, soft, analytical, and neutral.   Have you heard one?
Quote:

Could be, but the AGD site explicitly states what is seen below and Kingwa knows enough English to be able to tell if these English translations are correct.
 
Instead of changing the rules to agree with sonic perceptions I would assume that there must be something going on in the application of the product that changes it character from its intended design of "warm and soft" to analytical and neutral. 
 
 

 

Don't assumme all the DD's sound similiar,  the filter is a big influence on sound signature.
 


Quote:

Warm and neutral at the same time....??
Quote:

My musical series AG DAC is warm, soft, analytical, and neutral.   Have you heard one?

Yes,  an electric bass guitar is warm,    if it didn't sound warm when listening with my DAC I wouldn't say the DAC is Neutral.   Describing sound with words can be futile,  that is the point being made.