[silverrain]

The D5000 sounds very good to me, just as they are -- I would not let anyone mod them, even if for free.

 

[nnotis]

Hopefully all of you who are curious will have a chance to compare the stock version with the mods. The posts I've read and the people I've discussed the matter with have come to similar conclusions. I know that someone wrote a great comparison a few weeks ago. I'm sure a query would find it. It was clear to me that this person had different sound signature preferences from myself. But his/her objective assessment was consistent to mine. If I recall, she/he enjoyed the more veiled highs of the stock, where as I don't.

 

[nnotis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif And... they also do need an amp with very low impedence output (1-2 ohms) and lots of current... which does a remarkable job of "clearing them up" - top to bottom - even without the "Markl Mods."

Can you list a few such amps that you've found worked well? Thanks.

 

[Beav]

Quote:

Hopefully all of you who are curious will have a chance to compare the stock version with the mods. The posts I've read and the people I've discussed the matter with have come to similar conclusions. I know that someone wrote a great comparison a few weeks ago. I'm sure a query would find it. It was clear to me that this person had different sound signature preferences from myself. But his/her objective assessment was consistent to mine. If I recall, she/he enjoyed the more veiled highs of the stock, where as I don't.

What makes me question the value of mod "fixes" is the actual cause of the aspect that you are attempting to change. Could it be that the headphone is not the issue, or if so only partly to blame. What if the amp you're using is partially responsible and later you change out amps. Power cords and Interconnects can be trouble makers as well as benifical to your system. With all these factors, to mod a headphone based on one's experience with it on one system; one set of variables, is highly suspect to me. Now there are mods that are not "fixes", but general enhancements to a particular product. I usually look to the experience of the modder and his customer reviews to determine whether to take the jump into moding my gear. And it is a jump, as you are for one thing, voiding your warranty. There are exceptions to this, but these come from manufacturers who actually support the modder. Underwood Wally/Parts Connection is an example of this. And two, unless it is an upgrade to the wiring, you are taking the original design, that which the talent behind the product came up with and changing it into something that is not, in this case, a D5000. That may not mean anything to you but I'm into original designs. Just my opinion, all is good as long as you're happy with what you're hearing

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

^You have some point here, but when you're speaking about resonances that can be audible as such, it has nothing to do with power cords, ICs and all that. It's just basic physics. You have an enclosure which is not damped, a resonant material, which is wood, and if you detect that some frequencies get bloated, resonant and obscuring the rest of the spectrum, you just try to damp and fix those resonances, which is what the mod does.
If you don't hear those resonances, maybe because your amp doesn't offer a flat response in the low bass, or maybe because the music you mainly listen to has no information at those frequencies, then it's perfectly explainable that you don't feel the need to apply the mods.
To each one his own, IMHO the mods are required to make the D5000 outstanding cans. Without them they're good, but nothing really extraordinary.

Rgrds

 

[Beav]

Quote:

It's just basic physics. You have an enclosure which is not damped, a resonant material, which is wood, and if you detect that some frequencies get bloated, resonant and obscuring the rest of the spectrum, you just try to damp and fix those resonances, which is what the mod does.

Do all woody's have this issue? I would think if resonance is an issue with these type of cans it would have been dealt with in the design. If not then I can see how using this "fix" would be acceptable. In my case the Singlepower MPX3 amplifier I use has no issue with flat frequency response in the low frequency range. The music I listen to is Jazz, Blues and classic rock. So, what we have here is a mystery that our "opinions" simply will not solve on this fine day

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

hehehe, I don't doubt your single power is bass proficient with most cans, but also take into account that the D5000 are very low impedance cans (24 Ohm IIRC) and not specially sensitive, so the combination of a highish ouput impedance from a tube amp, with the low impedance at the cans, can roll-off the bass quite a lot, probably more than 3dB compared to people using low output impedance SS amplifiers.

Rgrds

 

[Philco]

It makes no sense to me that Denon, with all the ressources they have, wouldn't make sure that the product sounds the right way by eliminating resonance and stuff. This is the main reason I'm against the modding of headphones. I want to hear the design as the company's engineers wanted me to. If I'm not pleased with the sound they produce, I just switch headphones.

Having that said, I believe Denon surely wanted the D5000 to sound the way it does.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Beav /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do all woody's have this issue? I would think if resonance is an issue with these type of cans it would have been dealt with in the design. If not then I can see how using this "fix" would be acceptable. In my case the Singlepower MPX3 amplifier I use has no issue with flat frequency response in the low frequency range. The music I listen to is Jazz, Blues and classic rock. So, what we have here is a mystery that our "opinions" simply will not solve on this fine day

 

[Beav]

Quote:

also take into account that the D5000 are very low impedance cans (24 Ohm IIRC) and not specially sensitive, so the combination of a highish ouput impedance from a tube amp, with the low impedance at the cans, can roll-off the bass quite a lot, probably more than 3dB compared to people using low output impedance SS amplifiers.

Interesting. Hopefully my local head-fi group will pull off the mini-meet next week, and I can try the 5000 with other amps, hopefully a good SS amp. I've got to hear this roll off in contrast to understand it and perhaps see the weaknesses I'm missing. Thing is though, I'm really loving what I'm hearing from this headphone with my current rig...what a conundrum LOL

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

@Philco: Why should I care for the Denon engineers' intentions, or lack of them, if I hear the cans sounding righter modded?

Big companies produce items to meet some requirements into a price point to reach a market segment. They probably could have done better, but it had been more expensive, so the final price had been higher and the potential market, different.
Sony went really mad to make the R10's enclosure as it is to offer a product with no sound compromises. So it sold for 4000 USD.
The JVC DX-1000 don't have those resonance issues, but the wooden enclosure is more elaborated, has a double inner chamber and also the price is higher.

I don't think there's anything to criticize in people prefering the cans with those problems improved. You like the cans as they are, OK enjoy them, I won't be censuring you for that.

@Beav: Great, keep us posted on your findings. The fact is that I haven't listened to the stock D5000 using tube amps, just SS ones, but the impedance relation in the frequency response, specially at the extremes, could be an important factor to make the cans sounding quite right using certain amps.

Rgrds

 

[Philco]

Having an engineering education myself, I think the designers/engineers put great efforts into ensuring the cans sound as best as possible. For example, they sometimes use diffuse-field equalization shemes, they try to optimise the response (phase effects, impedance, distortion) all across the frequency range so that the performance is optimal. I don't think Denon would cut corners for their flagship headphones. If anything, they really did the best they could without bumping the price above 1K. Still, I doubt they could have made much better.

I trust the designers a lot more than my own ears because they have the means (test equipment, $$$, reference systems) and experience to know what is right instead of just my hearing telling me what is right. I believe hearing is so subjective that one has to rely (at least partially) on scientific guidelines in order to know what sounds "good" or not. I firmly believe in technical specs and scientific design. I have to make a point that while speakers are generally aiming for a flat response, headphones should not aim for a flat response due to the coupling means to the head. Hence, I do not favor "flattish" headphones anymore.

I come from a studio monitoring background where the engineers put a lot of effort into making the flattest, most accurate monitors around, and I surely wouldn't want to question their designs.

Modding a quality headphone to me is an aberration (that's just my opinion), because you can't know for sure (besides testing and basically resdisigning) that the modded phones actually perform better than the original ones. I wouldn't want to mess with the DF equalization sheme that Beyer used to design the DT770/880/990 series. Also, when you mod headphones, how can you be sure that both sides are really matched to 0.05dB or 0.1dB ? You have to test it again and basically be sure to calibrate both sides accordingly using measurements. This is why I would never mod high-end gear. Designers know to do it right.

If you think modding your D5000 is an improvement and you like to solely use your ears, then I'm glad you did it. There is nothing wrong with correcting something by using your ears only if their subjectivity is what you like to rely on. I only wonder if your modded phones are technically superior to the original D5000 ? It would be really nice to measure the modded and original D5000 and chat with the designers about why they didn't damp the cups a bit more. They surely have a reason besides money (damping costs next to nothing + if you could mod your D5000 by yourself so quickly then they could've done better in a day).


Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo /img/forum/go_quote.gif @Philco: Why should I care for the Denon engineers' intentions, or lack of them, if I hear the cans sounding righter modded? Big companies produce items to meet some requirements into a price point to reach a market segment. They probably could have done better, but it had been more expensive, so the final price had been higher and the potential market, different. Sony went really mad to make the R10's enclosure as it is to offer a product with no sound compromises. So it sold for 4000 USD. The JVC DX-1000 don't have those resonance issues, but the wooden enclosure is more elaborated, has a double inner chamber and also the price is higher. I don't think there's anything to criticize in people prefering the cans with those problems improved. You like the cans as they are, OK enjoy them, I won't be censuring you for that. Rgrds

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Come on Philco, if you're an engineer you know that one thing is engineering the best product you can make, and other very different thing is designing it to meet price points, keeping costs sensible and being able to make money selling it.

If you're into audio, you'll also know that fine engineers making interesting audio products, not only rely on measurements, but also in music and listening to it through the devices they're designing. Maybe the people at Denon skipped this step hehehehe.

IMHO it's quite naive believing that everything made by an engineer should be perfect and faultless. There are lots of crappy products out there.

Regarding the measurements, I'm waiting for my sound engineer friend who owns the testing gear and is away, to come back in order of having the MD5000 measured. Maybe in a couple of weeks or so. I'm not sure we can measure the stock ones since I don't have them, but I have these measured too with other lower quality testing gear. This could provide some reference point, but not as good as I'd like.

Rgrds

 

[Philco]

Obviously, there are always design constraints, but for flagship headphones (HD650, D5000, R10, Qualia, DT880, DT990-2005, K701, K1000, etc.) , these constraints become less and less important, as the main objective is producing the world's best headphone system, regardless of the time and money it takes. There is always a limit on the cost of the headphones (the R10 is a good example), but I don't believe that the damping material costs much when compared to the overall $700 that the Denon D5000 costs. My point is simply that if they left the bass the way it is for their flagship headphones, is because they firmly believe (thru all sorts of measurements, hearing, etc) that it was the right thing to do. If I had a headphone company I wouldn't want to put out a flagship headphone that isn't contending to become the world's best headphone.

About relying on the ears : the designers need to rely on their ears at some point, but generally it's for fine tuning after the science has taken part into the process. I think Denon heard the headphones and were actually convinced it was the best dynamic closed headphone ever produced, otherwise they would either a) sell it for only $200 or b) improve it until they were satisfied.

I doubt Denon put much effort in the D2000. They probably just removed the wood from the D5000 to reduce cost and then tweaked it a bit to get a similar response. It makes no sense for Denon to try to make the D2000 sound as good as their flagship, which HAD to be superior to everything out there.

About the measurements, I'd be very curious/interested to hear about those later on !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Come on Philco, if you're an engineer you know that one thing is engineering the best product you can make, and other very different thing is designing it to meet price points, keeping costs sensible and being able to make money selling it. If you're into audio, you'll also know that fine engineers making interesting audio products, not only rely on measurements, but also in music and listening to it through the devices they're designing. Maybe the people at Denon skipped this step hehehehe. IMHO it's quite naive believing that everything made by an engineer should be perfect and faultless. There are lots of crappy products out there. Regarding the measurements, I'm waiting for my sound engineer friend who owns the testing gear and is away, to come back in order of having the MD5000 measured. Maybe in a couple of weeks or so. I'm not sure we can measure the stock ones since I don't have them, but I have these measured too with other lower quality testing gear. This could provide some reference point, but not as good as I'd like. Rgrds

 

[markl]

Quote:

I don't think Denon would cut corners for their flagship headphones. If anything, they really did the best they could without bumping the price above 1K. Still, I doubt they could have made much better.

Hi Philco,
What about the D2000? It's (apparently) the exact same headphone but with a plastic ear cup? Why did did they do that? To make a headphone cheaper than the D5000 to build to a price point. I feel they did the same with the D5000. Can we at least agree that almost every other headphone past and present you can name with a sticker price at or near the D5000 has superior, more solid build quality? I love these cans, but man, that frame and the build is really flimsy. Mod-ing it firms it up, controlling all the resonances. Good speakers are (in part) distinguished by being full of internal bracing and damping. They tend to weigh a lot more than the Best Buy specials. You'll always see reviewers rapping on the outside of the speakers testing how much they vibrate.

 

[Philco]

To Denon, the D2000 is probably just a quickly-downgraded version of the D5000 and a means to make more money. They know that people will like the D5000 but many won't want to shell out the money so they made a "poor man's version" (notice that the D2000 is still a bit expensive, so no offence there!). Many companies do this, although I think it's not a very good practice. If I had a headphone company, I would prefer to have no filller models, only the best of the best flagship closed and open headphones (that's right, two models only, but they would be the best I could do).

The build quality is dispointing for a headphone of this price, but I didn't expect much from Denon, a brand that isn't known for really high-end/quality products.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Philco, What about the D2000? It's (apparently) the exact same headphone but with a plastic ear cup? Why did did they do that? To make a headphone cheaper than the D5000 to build to a price point. I feel they did the same with the D5000. Can we at least agree that almost every other headphone past and present you can name with a sticker price at or near the D5000 has superior build quality? I love these cans, but man, that frame and the build is really flimsy. Mod-ing it firms it up, controlling all the resonances. Good speakers are (in part) distinguished by being full of internal bracing and damping. They tend to weigh a lot more than the Best Buy specials. You'll always see reviewers rapping on the outside of the speakers testing how much they vibrate.