[Regs4]

Yes yes & yes. Kudos to Denafrips for offering customers options to choose the type of sound that suits one's preference. I'd never imagine that at the time when I bought Ares II I actually got a "buy one get two free" deal. Bravo!

Absolutely

 

[ms10]

Denafrips has the right to change the voicing of their equipment and be more competitive in the market, if this is their marketing strategy. But, by changing the most important mid-range sound quality, they offer to their existing customers a new piece of equipment that some of us would have never bought in the first place. In this huge thread, no-one has mentioned that the newer firmwares offered this year, have a warmer - more forgiving - more relaxing - plug-in and forget sound. It is clear that the new direction of Denafrips is to offer higher resolution, more analytical sound and precise soundstage. This new direction is very welcomed by many but not from all. Some of us prefer the “original Denafrips sound” and find refuge to the 1.0 version.

I would agree that with any other DAC manufacturer, that yes a change in voicing is acceptable. However, with the case of Denafrips I would have to disagree. My reasons are as follows.

I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but here in the UK it's not possible to audition a Denafrips DAC. Nor do Vinshine accept returns if you're not happy. So if you buy a Pontus, for example, based on reviews, then you do so on faith and can reasonably expect to hear a warm-ish sound. Denafrips are good value, but nevertheless these are big purchases, and correspondingly big risks to take.

My Pontus 12th arrived with v1.3 of the firmware installed and sounded nothing like the DAC I was led to expect. It was pretty horrible. If it's Denafrips intention to shift the tonal balance then they should do so through new models, not alter existing and extensively reviewed models.

Fine, I rectified the tonal balance with v1.0, and I would add that Vinshine's support is excellent. But, the caveat here is that I had to install two sets of drivers to do so, the latter requiring that I enable unsigned driver installation. I'm a software developer, and I wasn't even aware this was possible. Microsoft puts these safeguards in place for very good reasons. Getting drivers signed by a trusted certification authority is elementary stuff.

 

[medon]

...
My Pontus 12th arrived with v1.3 of the firmware installed and sounded nothing like the DAC I was led to expect. ...

Agree, after all these rave reviews of the "II" series the change to the new "12th" sound signature has not been reported much about on YT and other media.

BTW - I just checked what other manufacturers do regarding updating -- see Rockna's approach: Pretty cool.
http://www.rockna-audio.com/media/products/wavelight-dac/Wavelight-DAC-UserManual.pdf

 

[bellahsu]

I would agree that with any other DAC manufacturer, that yes a change in voicing is acceptable. However, with the case of Denafrips I would have to disagree. My reasons are as follows.

I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but here in the UK it's not possible to audition a Denafrips DAC. Nor do Vinshine accept returns if you're not happy. So if you buy a Pontus, for example, based on reviews, then you do so on faith and can reasonably expect to hear a warm-ish sound. Denafrips are good value, but nevertheless these are big purchases, and correspondingly big risks to take.

My Pontus 12th arrived with v1.3 of the firmware installed and sounded nothing like the DAC I was led to expect. It was pretty horrible. If it's Denafrips intention to shift the tonal balance then they should do so through new models, not alter existing and extensively reviewed models.

Fine, I rectified the tonal balance with v1.0, and I would add that Vinshine's support is excellent. But, the caveat here is that I had to install two sets of drivers to do so, the latter requiring that I enable unsigned driver installation. I'm a software developer, and I wasn't even aware this was possible. Microsoft puts these safeguards in place for very good reasons. Getting drivers signed by a trusted certification authority is elementary stuff.

 

[bellahsu]

Good point. As the new firmware has a different sound signature (overall tonal density has shifted to the north), I concur with your point that it should be applied only to the new models of DAC as the factory default. I use mac and the firmware update is simplified somewhat. Still, it took me ~10 minutes to update my DAC with the new firmware (i.e. it's not a small task). After almost a week of evaluation, I decided to revert the firmware back to v1.0. One has to be somewhat computer savvy to carry out Denafrip firmware update. I think such a task could be overwhelming complex for someone who is not.

 

[Regs4]

Tried upgrading to v1.8 and the terminal app is telling me "line 7: ./xprogmac: No such file or directory"

Anyone else run into this problem?

You have to turn off digital signature in advanced options then restart.

 

[Remd]

Musical enjoyment is the point, in my opinion. Detail is just one route to that. I'm more concerned about tonality and timbre.

I'm not that interested in sound-staging though.

I think the final assessment of the firmware change should wait at least 200 hours.

Some with venus may not yet be at the level of 1.8 or 3.7 (if I followed well, Pontus should be there with 1.4). The result of 3.7 and after running has clearly the most natural and real sound I have heard. This is so true that leaving a real concert, I immediately started my dac and integrated and could hear the same sound (piano, same brand)

It is certain that the new firmware reveals a lot of details and maybe it also reveals details that may have gone unnoticed before or that was masked about certain elements of the chain! (to be clear, you should test by changing certain elements)

I take an example, auralic has a rather cold and detailed sound (see analytical) (known) but with certain dac, the sound might seem soft with a little less details while with a very transparent, natural and detailed DAC, The "coldness" of the auralic could be unpleasant (by changing auralic with a less cold and more natural streamer, the sound finds all the qualities and more, since more details, precision, 3D image larger and deep and a presence remarkable natural). Of course, this could be a cable, HPs or feet under the dac etc... ( e.g. I put SSC Netpoint 300 instead of original parts and this made a big change into the sound - As well, I replaced high-end hp cables by Tubulus concentus high-end cables and the sound got a big improvement into medium, deep and precise basses as well nice detailled trebles removing all harshes I could find previously -( all went neutral, big 3D - changing power cables provided an improve into quality like the HP cable change. Now v3.7 put the neutrality far forward with the best real, natural sound I could hear ).

For the great sound and step forward into high quality with high natural and real sound, I say BRAVO ! congratulation to the work done by Denafrips and Alvin because updating firmware when no automatic internet link with included process exist is a big chalenge.
Some issue already exist and hope a correction soon.

 

[Regs4]

I think the final assessment of the firmware change should wait at least 200 hours.

Some with venus may not yet be at the level of 1.8 or 3.7 (if I followed well, Pontus should be there with 1.4). The result of 3.7 and after running has clearly the most natural and real sound I have heard. This is so true that leaving a real concert, I immediately started my dac and integrated and could hear the same sound (piano, same brand)

It is certain that the new firmware reveals a lot of details and maybe it also reveals details that may have gone unnoticed before or that was masked about certain elements of the chain! (to be clear, you should test by changing certain elements)

I take an example, auralic has a rather cold and detailed sound (see analytical) (known) but with certain dac, the sound might seem soft with a little less details while with a very transparent, natural and detailed DAC, The "coldness" of the auralic could be unpleasant (by changing auralic with a less cold and more natural streamer, the sound finds all the qualities and more, since more details, precision, 3D image larger and deep and a presence remarkable natural). Of course, this could be a cable, HPs or feet under the dac etc... ( e.g. I put SSC Netpoint 300 instead of original parts and this made a big change into the sound - As well, I replaced high-end hp cables by Tubulus concentus high-end cables and the sound got a big improvement into medium, deep and precise basses as well nice detailled trebles removing all harshes I could find previously -( all went neutral, big 3D - changing power cables provided an improve into quality like the HP cable change. Now v3.7 put the neutrality far forward with the best real, natural sound I could hear ).

For the great sound and step forward into high quality with high natural and real sound, I say BRAVO ! congratulation to the work done by Denafrips and Alvin because updating firmware when no automatic internet link with included process exist is a big chalenge.
Some issue already exist and hope a correction soon.

Alvin and crew are doing a real service to us seekers of fine sound.

 

[Gary88]

My original tplus 12th dac has v3.6 equivalent, definitely not v1.0 sound characteristic.
When I flashed it to v3.7 early June, sound can observe change a bit. After 24hrs, I flashed it back to v1.0.
Without any burn in, v1.0 sounded a lot better.
I have question here why v1.0 without any burn in can sound that good, why v3.7 need long hours burn in.
Anyhow I back to v3.7 few days ago just to give it once last try with the hypothesis of long hours continuos burn in. Now 24-7 on since yesterday and shall reaching 60hrs in total. Just worry jcat xe get burnt out with 24/7 on for days, dac ddc should be fine.

 

[medon]

...
I take an example, auralic has a rather cold and detailed sound (see analytical) (known) but with certain dac, the sound might seem soft with a little less details while with a very transparent, natural and detailed DAC, The "coldness" of the auralic could be unpleasant (by changing auralic with a less cold and more natural streamer, the sound finds all the qualities and more, since more details, precision, 3D image larger and deep and a presence remarkable natural)....
...

The streamer IMHO does have an impact on sound.
But a streamer doesn't have a "warm" or "cold" sound per se - it just has worse or better timing (jitter or lack thereof), resulting in different "sound" the DAC makes of it.

 

[Remd]

My original tplus 12th dac has v3.6 equivalent, definitely not v1.0 sound characteristic.
When I flashed it to v3.7 early June, sound can observe change a bit. After 24hrs, I flashed it back to v1.0.
Without any burn in, v1.0 sounded a lot better.
I have question here why v1.0 without any burn in can sound that good, why v3.7 need long hours burn in.
Anyhow I back to v3.7 few days ago just to give it once last try with the hypothesis of long hours continuos burn in. Now 24-7 on since yesterday and shall reaching 60hrs in total. Just worry jcat xe get burnt out with 24/7 on for days, dac ddc should be fine.

No, v1.0 had burn-in ( Denafrips does about 100h burn-in before sending dacs and then additionnal burn-in makes the sound better )
Each product needs burn-in and more physical material is involved and more the brun-in can take time

Now, what you are comparing is a v1.0 firmware with many hundred hours of burn-in to a firmware (switching different circuits) with less than 24h burn-in !
( e.g. My latest power cable got open with a big gap after nearly 300h - big silver cables while someother cables needed between 48 and 100h )

Burn-in can be quick, just have the dac on with music ( no need to have power amp on )
If you use a streamer, just put the streamer to an 24h/24 audiocast channel.

 

[Gary88]

No, v1.0 had burn-in ( Denafrips does about 100h burn-in before sending dacs and then additionnal burn-in makes the sound better )
Each product needs burn-in and more physical material is involved and more the brun-in can take time

Now, what you are comparing is a v1.0 firmware with many hundred hours of burn-in to a firmware (switching different circuits) with less than 24h burn-in !
( e.g. My latest power cable got open with a big gap after nearly 300h - big silver cables while someother cables needed between 48 and 100h )

Burn-in can be quick, just have the dac on with music ( no need to have power amp on )
If you use a streamer, just put the streamer to an 24h/24 audiocast channel.

Ya, I all the while off amp only on when to try the sound. Only pc DDC DAC on, monitor pre amp off most times.
My dac tplus 12th may not pre installed with v1.0, I felt v3.6 sound closer to orig sound to me.
Anyhow v1.0 was older firmware that install at orig terminator ... Not the 12th anniversary Termi.

 

[Remd]

The streamer IMHO does have an impact on sound.
But a streamer doesn't have a "warm" or "cold" sound per se - it just has worse or better timing (jitter or lack thereof), resulting in different "sound" the DAC makes of it.

Not only, the streamer has external frequency rejection, high regulators etc.... each internal component has an impact on the sound as well the internal firmware ( it was found that digital sound is impacted too ). Power cable changes the sound of the streamer while it has less impact on jitter (but better EMI/RMF rejection may be) but it will make it harder or softer ( warmer or colder ) as well more open or with more basses or less treble harsh and this is why USB cable quality impacts the sound too and of course jitter is far the most impacting. I've tested several streamer using same cables and the sound changed from colder to warmer as well from numericall (analytic) to full nice body sound.

Streamer impacts sound like DAC will impact it.
Most high-end streamer have lowest jitter as possible with the same level but sound is different which is a good thing because we all have different need.

e.g. from what I could hear and what sellers told me too - Auralic ( analitic and a litle colder ) - Aurender ( detailed and neutral ) - Metronome ( detailed, a litle warm with a nice rich full body )

 

[Remd]

Ya, I all the while off amp only on when to try the sound. Only pc DDC DAC on, monitor pre amp off most times.
My dac tplus 12th may not pre installed with v1.0, I felt v3.6 sound closer to orig sound to me.
Anyhow v1.0 was older firmware that install at orig terminator ... Not the 12th anniversary Termi.

For the 12th, its original firmware had nearly 100h burn-in too ( all dac send by denafrips have this burn-in time )
Each firmware impacting sound enables different cicrcuits and some could impact more or less according which circuits are set or not.
I suppose the v3.6 was close to the original one which in case needed less burn-in but v3.7 is a big step above and burn-in must be done before comparing

Do the burn-in (nearly 200h - it will really open suddently to its maximum in less than 2 days when you are near 200h burn-in time [ it could be less or more ], as soon you hear a big change, the burn-in is completed ) and you will be surprised by the big gap in quality you'll win than.
Once it is done, tell us how it compares with the original fimware but may be you never would like try the older firmware then

 

[Gary88]

Remd, because of your and some other optimistic comments about v3.7 , I have to continue wait for the burn in ... I most likely will test the sound again this weekend. It shall reach 120hrs by then.