[sabloke]

Type A USB 2.0 cable works just fine with the X-SPDIF 2. I am using a nice Tschernov one, 700 mm long. The connector on the back of the X is USB 3.0 but no need for a cable to match it, especially when using an external power supply, in which case the bus power rails are disabled anyway.

 

[AlanU]

Ok so please correct me if I am wrong, so if you have a dac like an ARES, that does not take I2S, you can still feed it a re-clocked, so properly perfectly clocked COAX signal, coming from any great DDC converters, from noisy USB to clean and perfectly reclocked coax signal, even though the ARES will still use their own clcok to convert to analog... (since it has not I2S, right?).

If it was a DAC with I2S it would be possible to skip the DAC clock, feed it a perfectly clocked signal via I2S, and that signal would be converted to analog in that dac, without using the dac clock, just using the clocked timing coming from I2S from the DDC clock...

Is this correct?

So feeding ARES2 with a perfectly clocked signal, even though we can not bypass ares2 clock, should improve the sound a bit... correct? hope it is clear now, interesting always to be able to improve further an already great product, with a little bit extra investment down the road, right? thanks for the expertise AlanU, by the way:

Aren't there opened threads about this in the forum so we can ask there? I have also sen cheap galvanic isolators that might provide some USB cleaning for little money... or comparing different DDC's performances or DAC pairing, that would be awesome.

Quick watch.....



Quick rundown on the importance of a precise clock.

In my particular approach on source, I suggest looking at source as water. We can use purified by reverse osmosis or drink water that is clear as mud. In the end, we are definitely able to process both types of water. I'm guessing most would prefer reverse osmosis purification.

My opinion (please laugh or criticize) is that we all must start somewhere. We are creatures that typically want some type of upgrade path.

It's rather simple to almost create a setup of "endgame" status in cleaning square waves. DACS are the though decisions based on your ears and is extremely subjective.

I2S is the new kid on the block that can pass higher resolution than Coax/toslink 24/192. Some may say I2S is superior to coax. If higher resolution is what you call "superior", I'd suggest engaging yourself with vinyl or serious high quality recordings of 16 or 24 bit. I'm still waiting for a world standard in I2S pinout. Once that happens I'll be a bit more flexible. Nice to use your standard HDMI cable ranging from 2 dollar to $1000++++

I've used the uptone usbRegen to attempt a cleanup of digital usb signal. Even with my particular setup it was not money well invested IMO. Purchased silent angel N8 audiograde ethernet switch with linear power supply. That was more of an eye opener in the "source cleanup" world for my upstream cleanup efforts.

If you have an ARES II I'd suggest cleaning up your upstream source instead of spending it on a higher end dac. My take on this approach is to have the best square wave signal as possible to MAXIMIZE downstream signal to dac. This way you can tap into maximum performance to any dac you ever buy.

I've yet to hear anyone cascading the consumer grade Denafrips DDC product. The power of cascading is well known in the Mutec world. In reality I'd tell people to buy a re-clocking DDC any day before spending it on your average streamer product or "regular" DDC products.

Cheap galvanic isolation usb devices might be a little tweak to eliminate noise transfer from a noisy laptop.

If you analyze the youtube vid link, you'll see how your "ears" will determine the SQ change in tweaks. No doubt that when it comes to digital streaming, no dispute can be made that garbage clock signals truly damages sound quality. Buying a higher end denafrips is fine. You must wrap your brain that a Pontus/Venus/Terminator your buying a product that accepts garbage square waves and then re-clocks it inside the DAC. My point is spending money on a DAC is a great upgrade but incremental as your still feeding it garbage.

If you drink clean water........ why feed your DAC mud

Always consider that down the road a re-clocking DDC is not a useless or fruitless tweak. Once you start applying clean source, you'll soon hear more immediate changes if you are a tweaker in cables.

Suddenly you might buy a lower priced affordable SMSL M400 akm chipset dac and feed it a ultra low jitter signal. You may just adore that sound signature over more $$$$$$$ DACS in the Denafrips line that simply "sounds different".

 

[]eep]

I am not going to watch the vid you linked because, simply; he irritates me. He might have some (*) good information but his voice is so jittery, flat and with a terrible accent (especially annoying for me from the same country, where the old generation didn't learn to speak English all that well). And his presentation is so booooring he is scaring everyone away from high quality audio.
* I say some because he isn't always correct and has blinders on on some topics. The graph on the video FI is misleading and incorrect. He shows a drop below minimum after two 00 so the next 1 isn't registered as a 1. Nice oversimplification but incorrect.

Also, as important clean power and clean signal are, lets not get ahead of ourselves. Even when the M400 has some nice femtoclocks and a topline AKM4499, it is still a sigma delta that produces very low voltage output. That needs proper I/V, filtering, buffering, amplification. All that muddies up your clear water again (to stick to the metaphor). And a lot more than the digital signal because its analog.


Oh, and i²s is superior because it seperates data L+R and clock for pcm and dsd and is fairly unlimited. Coax S/P-dif is an ancient protocol for routing a digital signal over a single wire alternating the data distributed over time so you need another translation. And then there's the 75 Ohm issue. So it's limited. It's ok for most music though. Better proper redbook than bad high-res.

 

[Lolito]

I am not going to watch the vid you linked because, simply; he irritates me. He might have some (*) good information but his voice is so jittery, flat and with a terrible accent (especially annoying for me from the same country, where the old generation didn't learn to speak English all that well). And his presentation is so booooring he is scaring everyone away from high quality audio.
* I say some because he isn't always correct and has blinders on on some topics. The graph on the video FI is misleading and incorrect. He shows a drop below minimum after two 00 so the next 1 isn't registered as a 1. Nice oversimplification but incorrect.

Also, as important clean power and clean signal are, lets not get ahead of ourselves. Even when the M400 has some nice femtoclocks and a topline AKM4499, it is still a sigma delta that produces very low voltage output. That needs proper I/V, filtering, buffering, amplification. All that muddies up your clear water again (to stick to the metaphor). And a lot more than the digital signal because its analog.


Oh, and i²s is superior because it seperates data L+R and clock for pcm and dsd and is fairly unlimited. Coax S/P-dif is an ancient protocol for routing a digital signal over a single wire alternating the data distributed over time so you need another translation. And then there's the 75 Ohm issue. So it's limited. It's ok for most music though. Better proper redbook than bad high-res.

AlanU busted

 

[TheRealDz]

Perfect timing:

https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-iris-usb-digital-to-digital-converter/

 

[AlanU]

I am not going to watch the vid you linked because, simply; he irritates me. He might have some (*) good information but his voice is so jittery, flat and with a terrible accent (especially annoying for me from the same country, where the old generation didn't learn to speak English all that well). And his presentation is so booooring he is scaring everyone away from high quality audio.
* I say some because he isn't always correct and has blinders on on some topics. The graph on the video FI is misleading and incorrect. He shows a drop below minimum after two 00 so the next 1 isn't registered as a 1. Nice oversimplification but incorrect.

Also, as important clean power and clean signal are, lets not get ahead of ourselves. Even when the M400 has some nice femtoclocks and a topline AKM4499, it is still a sigma delta that produces very low voltage output. That needs proper I/V, filtering, buffering, amplification. All that muddies up your clear water again (to stick to the metaphor). And a lot more than the digital signal because its analog.


Oh, and i²s is superior because it seperates data L+R and clock for pcm and dsd and is fairly unlimited. Coax S/P-dif is an ancient protocol for routing a digital signal over a single wire alternating the data distributed over time so you need another translation. And then there's the 75 Ohm issue. So it's limited. It's ok for most music though. Better proper redbook than bad high-res.

Hans is one the few people that have NOT sold out. He's very neutral and honest which is welcoming. Thomas and Stereo is another channel that is quite honest too.

Interesting you discuss "clean power". That is a topic I didn't want to get into too much as it's all dependent on the cleanliness of your local power grid, dedicated power line, power conditioning and connection of termination. Also a whole different topic on linear power supplies and manipulating frequency of the sine wave to modify tone........

As far as front end digital, it's rather simple. Eliminate EMI with galvanic isolation and take care of the x and y axis of the square wave signal. Stable amplitude of the wave form as well as taking care of the x axis (precision timing) so it will deliver music as intended by the artist. Also hitting the re-clocked signal with a redundant process to even do more cleanes. I know this works as I've performed daisychain re-clocking and so have others I know.

I'm not agains I2s. My concern is that Ares II DAC owners may get the impression that they are left out due to lack of I2S. Once I2S becomes a standard with identical pinouts I am not too excited about it. I've spent under 6 grand on DDC and audiograde ethernet switches. My DDC does not have I2S. When the time comes I'll dive into I2S when I find a worth DAC. I cannot limit myself in the Denafrips eco system to use proprietary pinouts and specific Denafrips DDC for I2S implementation.

I demand a world standard for the I2s pinout so I can use a re-clocking ddc for any dac with I2S. This moment in time there is no such thing.

75 ohm is not a limitation. I'll take a Tchernov Special coax and be floored in the cost/performance ratio. That cable alone runs lateral if not surpasses extremely expensive coax cables.

I'm a person that looks at specs but I use my ears more. Look at a Berkely audio design alpha 3 dac. Looks wonderful and costs an arm and a leg. Let your ears tell you if a cheaper Ares II is more musical and has a flow of holographic enjoyment.

If you have ever heard of a delta/sigma dac with cascaded re-clocking DDC, please inform us about the performance. I would take a 16/44.1 or 24/192 with re-clocked digital source than 32 bit. I2S has so much more bandwidth. If you buy into a Denafrips DDC and go with a Aqua dac or other I2S dacs the pinouts can be off and the Denafrips DDC is useless, however you can use the AES/toslink/coax iirc.

People are all different. Many high end system users will prefer 24 bit or even 16. If you hear the natural state of analog flow with insane holographic imaging the extra upsample will not give you more. Infact, I am testing Audirvana studio and the analog flow and ease is much more engaging 16 bit than upsampled 24 bit. Try testing Diana Krall's live "a case you".

One thing to consider is that you will not own a DAC forever. Limiting on yourself buying a $$$$ dac or DDC hoping I2S is the best is not versatile. I'd invest in a world standard or even older coax before I2S. That's my ears and experience with this stuff. In due time I'll spend a lot of money on I2S. That will be a no brainer but for now due to no standard.....no thank you

 

[TheRealDz]

Great comments, @AlanU.

I am pretty sold on the Iris, but still considering the Matrix, SingXer, and Audio-GD units. Sadly, the Gustard U16 is by far the lowest price, but that seems to be because of it's stability issues.

If I understand it correctly (and maybe being overly optimistic), the Iris reclocking function plus the basic reclocking inherent in the Ares when connected via coax is a good thing, and kind of a poor man's daisy chained Mutec?

 

[AlanU]

Great comments, @AlanU.

I am pretty sold on the Iris, but still considering the Matrix, SingXer, and Audio-GD units. Sadly, the Gustard U16 is by far the lowest price, but that seems to be because of it's stability issues.

If I understand it correctly (and maybe being overly optimistic), the Iris reclocking function plus the basic reclocking inherent in the Ares when connected via coax is a good thing, and kind of a poor man's daisy chained Mutec?

We are all experimenting and on a journey. Key point is Re-clocking will be a common conversation in due time. I'm few that are totally vocal as I've personally experienced big sonic changes as well as other people with SUBSTANTIALLY more ultra high end gear.

When you do purchase a good reclocker just close your eyes. You will IMMEDIATELY hear a lift in congestion. Suddenly the music will flowwwwwwwww with this ease. Toe tapping will start as things just sound more musical. During that time NO roll off of highs or major manipulation of tone. Noise floor will "change" but what is more obvious is the details starts to pop out more. Micro detail starts to poke it's head out of the lower noise floor. In some cases it seems that instruments gets isolated and surrounded in black. The trio music will sound more holographic instead of being clumped together like a blob of music.

RealDz, this is a fun journey and you are the judge equipped with your ears. Enjoy music first and foremost. What you will discover down the road is that source is EVERYTHING. The foundation that is converted for D to A. Silly obvious but the ARIES II certainly "wings it" in sounding good even with mediocre square wave signals. This is why I say to people to enjoy but there is much more room for improvement.

I look at DDC as an entirely different system. I do not clump in the price of the re-clocking DDC with the price of the DAC. Once you create a certain "endgame" upstream source, down stream is just a logical improvement (dac, preamp,amp). One less to think about once you have ultra low jitter.

I do not sell gear. I'll say Tchernov "special" coax has been one of the biggest shockers in price point and performance. I'm pretty much hit my "end game" in source cleanse. From Silent Angel audio grade ethernet switch, mutec to the Tchernov delivery to dac. I've covered my version of endgame ultra low jitter.

Dacs come and go. An ultra low jitter signal in my personal views is mandatory for relieving digital glare. Never take source quality for granted.

 

[sajunky]

If I understand it correctly (and maybe being overly optimistic), the Iris reclocking function plus the basic reclocking inherent in the Ares when connected via coax is a good thing, and kind of a poor man's daisy chained Mutec?

Reclocking is good things and bad. It is a wide term, which means that a term "reclocking DAC" can mean many things. A bad, as it is always better to not reclock when unnecessary. The best clock is close to a ladder, this is a concept of Terminator+. However a clock in Terminator is not better than a good third-party clock device around $1k and Terminator has no clock input. It means, there are no upgrade options. But it is a digression, as it worries only TOTL users.

If I remember correctly @AlanU claims that Venus II is not better on I2S than AES. If it is a case, then Venus is reclocking I2S port which is not needed in this case and perhaps not implemented very well. I take this note seriously, as other observations (if theories removed) are 100% accurate, IHMO.

On the other side Mutec is an excellent device. Some others use it succesfully with Audio GD R-7HE. It is a proper use of a DDC, as AES signal runs in parallel with clock on a separate cable, that mitigate a requirement for clock recovery from S/PDIF data stream (which always ads a jitter). It is the only case when AES is approaching I2S quality when implemented correctly. But once again it is a TOTL solution. I2S is cheaper to implement.

In the case of Ares, Mutec has a very limited use. I would rather invest in a better DAC with I2S port with a prospect for better upgreadability. Next in line is Pontus, but if Pontus has quality problem over I2S like Venus, I would rather chose a different brand. I2S is currently becoming a industry standard, I would invest in this direction.

 

[Lolito]

Reclocking is good things and bad. It is a wide term, which means that a term "reclocking DAC" can mean many things. A bad, as it is always better to not reclock when unnecessary. The best clock is close to a ladder, this is a concept of Terminator+. However a clock in Terminator is not better than a good third-party clock device around $1k and Terminator has no clock input. It means, there are no upgrade options. But it is a digression, as it worries only TOTL users.

If I remember correctly @AlanU claims that Venus II is not better on I2S than AES. If it is a case, then Venus is reclocking I2S port which is not needed in this case and perhaps not implemented very well. I take this note seriously, as other observations (if theories removed) are 100% accurate, IHMO.

On the other side Mutec is an excellent device. Some others use it succesfully with Audio GD R-7HE. It is a proper use of a DDC, as AES signal runs in parallel with clock on a separate cable, that mitigate a requirement for clock recovery from S/PDIF data stream (which always ads a jitter). It is the only case when AES is approaching I2S quality when implemented correctly. But once again it is a TOTL solution. I2S is cheaper to implement.

In the case of Ares, Mutec has a very limited use. I would rather invest in a better DAC with I2S port with a prospect for better upgreadability. Next in line is Pontus, but if Pontus has quality problem over I2S like Venus, I would rather chose a different brand. I2S is currently becoming a industry standard, I would invest in this direction.

You mean I2S is standirizing non-standard ports, right? because that is what is doing, every company using a different pin layout for that HDMI connection, LOL. Everyone who has used it likes it, but the actual problem is that it is not an standard, yet, correct?

How many different I2S HDMI layouts are there? it's maybe like 3 types and each brand choose one boat, or how is it, maybe the future indeed, not the present though.

 

[sajunky]

You mean I2S is standirizing non-standard ports, right? because that is what is doing, every company using a different pin layout for that HDMI connection, LOL. Everyone who has used it likes it, but the actual problem is that it is not an standard, yet, correct?

How many different I2S HDMI layouts are there? it's maybe like 3 types and each brand choose one boat, or how is it, maybe the future indeed, not the present though.

PS Audio with LVDS signalling (over HDMI cables) slowly becomes an industry standard. There are no compatibility problems regarding functionality and operation. There are still minor variations of pins, especially regarding DSD transfers (as it wasn't covered in PS Audio implementation), but switches are in place. Custom cables help when switches are not sufficient. I think users are confused with these switches, it is a biggest problem. There are bugs in the equipment as always, the latest example is non-functioning I2S port on Pegasus.

 

[AlanU]

Reclocking is good things and bad. It is a wide term, which means that a term "reclocking DAC" can mean many things. A bad, as it is always better to not reclock when unnecessary. The best clock is close to a ladder, this is a concept of Terminator+. However a clock in Terminator is not better than a good third-party clock device around $1k and Terminator has no clock input. It means, there are no upgrade options. But it is a digression, as it worries only TOTL users.

If I remember correctly @AlanU claims that Venus II is not better on I2S than AES. If it is a case, then Venus is reclocking I2S port which is not needed in this case and perhaps not implemented very well. I take this note seriously, as other observations (if theories removed) are 100% accurate, IHMO.

On the other side Mutec is an excellent device. Some others use it succesfully with Audio GD R-7HE. It is a proper use of a DDC, as AES signal runs in parallel with clock on a separate cable, that mitigate a requirement for clock recovery from S/PDIF data stream (which always ads a jitter). It is the only case when AES is approaching I2S quality when implemented correctly. But once again it is a TOTL solution. I2S is cheaper to implement.

In the case of Ares, Mutec has a very limited use. I would rather invest in a better DAC with I2S port with a prospect for better upgreadability. Next in line is Pontus, but if Pontus has quality problem over I2S like Venus, I would rather chose a different brand. I2S is currently becoming a industry standard, I would invest in this direction.

Sajunky,

I have not made any claims on Venus II I2S or AES.

We can always assume that a Denafrips upgrade path will always be better. Sometime, depending on music genre this may not be 100% of the case. This is where many didn't catch on that the improvements in SQ stemmed from the reclock in the Pontus, Venus and Terminator. Indeed the higher tier DAC had more R&D in the quality in the ccts. Collectively the Input "reclock" and bump in better ccts in the DAC phase will provide a "different/better" sounding dac.

I'm in a different school of thought and suggest sticking with an ARES II and build your endgame Reclocking source setup. My approach will allow a reclocking of signal for a higher end dac which so far equates to good to great sonic improvements. Or buy your excellent NON reclocking DAC and feed it with your "endgame" cleanses of square wave.

Sajunky, you are very correct with the reclock signal being closer to the D to A conversion. This is where the weak link is the coax cable. There has been an interesting discussion I had regarding coax length. One side of the people believe in short coax cable to preserve the precision clock and least chance of introducing noise. The other side of the discussion is about people believing 1.5 meters length provides the least reflection of noise to reduce chances of jitter. I am one of "those" people that demands shortest cable as possible or at least .7 to 1 meter length coax. You may observe Tchernov cables offering shorter lengths for a specific and deliberate reason.

I do wish for I2S flooding the market. I do hope for an industry pin out standard in the very near future. Presently it seems there are more people confused why their I2S dac isn't working with other manufactured products. If you are old enough to remember Sony Beta vs VHS.....that was a gong show LOL!!!

DACS are system dependent too. If you are into cabling you will understand that you can sometimes create your own "synergy" just like rolling tubes. However you can only do so much.

For the average joe, reclocking is almost always going to always be a certain winner. Even nice 4 grand streamers DO NOT have ultra low jitter. If you are a BlueSound Node 2i user this will beg for a cleaner coax signal. I've yet to hear any negative effects, only positive results reclocking a signal.

Buying a better reclocking DAC is as simple as ordering online or placing your credit card on the sales counter. Having non reclocked signal feeding an ARES II will NEVER allow you to see the true potential. This is why I say build your low jitter source upstream first. DAC and other components is easy. Having dirty source will ALWAYS make you question if you are truly benefiting in spending more money on an upgraded component being noisy source.

 

[sabloke]

I2S over HDMI seems to be converging to a de-facto standard lately around PS Audio's settings. The most common issue seems to be swapped channels, easily fixed with a jumper. That's my experience with Venus and X-SPDIF, other than that it is plug and play. Definitely better sound than over AES, checked this A/B as it is dead easy to do by changing the toggle the input buttons on the Venus.

 

[Lolito]

booooriiinnnnngggg !!!!!!!!!!!

boooo-bo-bo-boooo-boooo-rinnnnnnnng !!!!!!

boo boooo

Like beach boys with barbara ann, but with booooringggggg


I find all this extremely low and primitive tech, if you gotta spend couple thousand bucks for what it is pretty much a headphone jack... I mean... should I better massage the usb before entering the DDC, maybe an ASMRA massage, or thai massage? with happy ending? teflon lube for better connection (free new snake oil idea).

Put the fricking USB cleanign inside the dac, for god sake. No, don't tell me it is better an external ddc box, no, just like an external power supply is not good idea, unless box is very big though, but sell the whole thing together please, from USB to the analog out for the preamp... these companies want to sell us just another box. I'd rather have a decent USB cleaning protocol in my dac, and be done with such joke of primitive technology.

 

[sajunky]

Sajunky, you are very correct with the reclock signal being closer to the D to A conversion. This is where the weak link is the coax cable. There has been an interesting discussion I had regarding coax length. One side of the people believe in short coax cable to preserve the precision clock and least chance of introducing noise. The other side of the discussion is about people believing 1.5 meters length provides the least reflection of noise to reduce chances of jitter. I am one of "those" people that demands shortest cable as possible or at least .7 to 1 meter length coax. You may observe Tchernov cables offering shorter lengths for a specific and deliberate reason.
[...]
For the average joe, reclocking is almost always going to always be a certain winner. Even nice 4 grand streamers DO NOT have ultra low jitter. If you are a BlueSound Node 2i user this will beg for a cleaner coax signal. I've yet to hear any negative effects, only positive results reclocking a signal.

If you ask me as an engineer, I will tell you straight away you are right, that shorter cables are better. Those who claim otherwise do not understand physics and most likely do not provide proper termination on both sides, so a reflection from the source come to play. With a longer lenght there is more chance for the bounced energy to come after the event is already triggered, but it should be dealt with termination, not increasing a cable lenght. S/PDIF standard is very losely defined, RCA connectors are completely inappropriate for a job and in result only the best brands follow general design rules (and not always). In a higher tier equipment there are BNC ports, use it whenever possible.

Regarding reclocking, read my word again. It is a substitute for a proper arrangement of the clock distribution and you have agreed that the best is to have a low jitter clock next to the ladder. However external clocks devices are much better quality, so losses on the cable are acceptable. As a bonus, when you supply both DAC and a DDC with the same clock frequency, you can avoid reclocking completely. You have good experience with Mutec, you found a good solution, but please do not make generic statements about reclocking superiority. DDC's do much more work than reclocking, you completely forgotten about ground loops. Why do you think DI-20HE has regenerative power supply?