[gnomen]

A follow up to my earlier post above, cross-posted from the Weiss thread.

Spent a long session today comparing the Weiss Helios to the Bartok Apex. It was a head-to-head struggle, with one DAC besting the other on some tracks and vice-versa. It is amazing that two similarly priced and specc'd devices still can be voiced so differently.

And easy to see why some would prefer one device over the other. The Bartok has a fuller/richer/rounder sound whereas the Helios is more resolving, refined and detailed. It really does depend on what kind of listening you like to do.

In the end, for my tastes and my listening material, I opted for the Helios, largely because the higher resolution conveyed more in terms of instrumental and vocal character, captured more about the expressiveness of the performer and the tiny nuances in performance, and reproduced more of the hall ambience and reverberation, all of which made the music more emotionally engaging.

I also thought the Helios created a more convincing sound stage, with rock-solid and stable placement. (Recording dependent, of course.) The Helios was rhythmically better. We were all toe-tapping and humming along to many of the livelier tracks.

And "listenability". The final test for me, and a reflection on the day's work, is that with the Helios I repeatedly caught myself wanting to keep listening to the remainder of the current piece rather than move on to the next test track. I became absorbed in the music each time, wanting to hear how the music would develop.

Test tracks were a mix of pop vocal, jazz, orchestral, chamber, choral and operatic. The tests were in my home system, with each device directly driving ATC SCM50ASL active loudspeakers.

So, subject to final negotiations and product availability, the Helios will be my next DAC for the foreseeable future. I expect my MScaler, Chord TT2, dCS Network Bridge and associated Wave Storm cables will be appearing in the For-Sale listings shortly. Thanks to everyone for the advice posted here.

 

[AudioFanX]

It took a little time, but I have already read all the comments in this thread. Now it's time on the DCS community forum.

 

[ruchottalex]

You're going deep by going to the DCS forum - so much going on there. But TBH the forum being so vibrant is a very good reason to feel good about going with Bartok (or Rossini)... so many people there for troubleshooting and I've found DCS staff there very helpful and responsive as well. I personally think that when you're willing to plunk down 5 figures on a DAC, etc, that the company should provide good support. DCS definitely in that camp.

 

[chesebert]

You're going deep by going to the DCS forum - so much going on there. But TBH the forum being so vibrant is a very good reason to feel good about going with Bartok (or Rossini)... so many people there for troubleshooting and I've found DCS staff there very helpful and responsive as well. I personally think that when you're willing to plunk down 5 figures on a DAC, etc, that the company should provide good support. DCS definitely in that camp.

I desire the exact opposite when it comes gear. When I spend that kind of money I want my dac to be perfect bone stock so I don’t need any tech support. Tube amp, CDP, turntable are obviously different due to service requirements but solid state dac, streamer, etc, the best case scenario for me is that I am so pleased with the sound and continue to be pleased that I don’t ever need any help.

 

[Andrewteee]

I desire the exact opposite when it comes gear. When I spend that kind of money I want my dac to be perfect bone stock so I don’t need any tech support. Tube amp, CDP, turntable are obviously different due to service requirements but solid state dac, streamer, etc, the best case scenario for me is that I am so pleased with the sound and continue to be pleased that I don’t ever need any help.

IME dCS is 100% reliable. The "tech support" that some ask about on the dCS community forum is generally A) the user is not very familiar with the gear or B) they find an edge case that dCS did not know about, and dCS appreciates this kind of "bug" reporting or C) they want to dig deep into various settings etc to get the most out of their DAC. dCS is very responsive and always very professional. I have not seen another audio company that is this engaged with their customers in such a venue so consistently.

Digital gear and DACs often interact with other software or devices and there's no such system that's perfectly foolproof. For example, Tidal changed their format so any vendor who integrates with it had to update their apps, and sometimes it might take a version or two to get things working 100% right. It's software.

 

[senseitedj]

IME dCS is 100% reliable. The "tech support" that some ask about on the dCS community forum is generally A) the user is not very familiar with the gear or B) they find an edge case that dCS did not know about, and dCS appreciates this kind of "bug" reporting or C) they want to dig deep into various settings etc to get the most out of their DAC. dCS is very responsive and always very professional. I have not seen another audio company that is this engaged with their customers in such a venue so consistently.

Digital gear and DACs often interact with other software or devices and there's no such system that's perfectly foolproof. For example, Tidal changed their format so any vendor who integrates with it had to update their apps, and sometimes it might take a version or two to get things working 100% right. It's software.

I find the dcs forums to be more useful to get more info on the bartok.

Personally I feel the Bartok is one of the most well built products in audio. Alot of these high end dacs are often so clunky to use that they feel like a product still in beta. The Bartok on the other hand is a feature-rich, stable and overal feels like a mature product.

 

[rogan]

Officially a Bartok owner, thanks to a member on here (who I will let expose themselves as a leaver!). Absolutely loving it.

 

[turbofeet]

Officially a Bartok owner, thanks to a member on here (who I will let expose themselves as a leaver!). Absolutely loving it.

Enjoy it.

After listening to Tambaqui and Dave the Bartók was my clear favourite of the 3.

I miss it already but I'm very hopeful the MU2 will fill that void.

I guess I'll unfollow the thread....maybe later

 

[AudioFanX]

I want to determine which clock works best with dCS Bartók and whether it is worth updating the Bartok HP 2.0 to APEX or showing great patience and switching over time to dCS Rossini APEX DAC / Streamer.

Who among you can explain this to me?

 

[ThanatosVI]

I want to determine which clock works best with dCS Bartók and whether it is worth updating the Bartok HP 2.0 to APEX or showing great patience and switching over time to dCS Rossini APEX DAC / Streamer.

Who among you can explain this to me?

I'd also like to know.
Additionally I always wondered why there is a Lina clock a Rossini clock but no Bartok clock.

Wouldn't it be reasonable for aesthetics alone to have a fitting Bartok clock?

 

[chesebert]

I want to determine which clock works best with dCS Bartók and whether it is worth updating the Bartok HP 2.0 to APEX or showing great patience and switching over time to dCS Rossini APEX DAC / Streamer.

Who among you can explain this to me?

Yes. IMO APEX is quite a bit better - across the model range. Clock is also necessary for dCS - only for dCS because they designed their dacs this way - bad design but that’s neither here nor there. The difference with and without external clock is also easily heard and sound with clock will be bigger, more refined, more solidity of instruments and bass hits harder etc. Dealers will tell you to use Rossini clock but I think all of them should work - not 100% certain. Still dCS is not worth the price when you add together all the pieces and even their 3 piece TOTL were not enough take me over the hump.

 

[AudioFanX]

Yes. IMO APEX is quite a bit better - across the model range. Clock is also necessary for dCS - only for dCS because they designed their dacs this way - bad design but that’s neither here nor there. The difference with and without external clock is also easily heard and sound with clock will be bigger, more refined, more solidity of instruments and bass hits harder etc. Dealers will tell you to use Rossini clock but I think all of them should work - not 100% certain. Still dCS is not worth the price when you add together all the pieces and even their 3 piece TOTL were not enough take me over the hump.

My dealer recommends the Mutec REF10 SE 120 clock. He also claims that the Rosinii clock is worse and more expensive than Mutec. The dealer, as the owner of the Bartók, does not intend to update it to APEX. If he is thinking about changing, switch to Rossini APEX and then it may be better.

I've studied this whole thread and I know that some of you haven't heard Rossini clock with Bartók. That this clock was created specifically for Rossini DAC and it does a good job there. The advantage of the Rossini clock is the fact that it is almost maintenance-free and requires only one power cable. This is quite important to me.

My second dealer tells me not to spend money on any watch other than the rubidium clock from Esoteric. The price of these higher model watches is quite high.

 

[chesebert]

My dealer recommends the Mutec REF10 SE 120 clock. He also claims that the Rosinii clock is worse and more expensive than Mutec. The dealer, as the owner of the Bartók, does not intend to update it to APEX. If he is thinking about changing, switch to Rossini APEX and then it may be better.

I've studied this whole thread and I know that some of you haven't heard Rossini clock with Bartók. That this clock was created specifically for Rossini DAC and it does a good job there. The advantage of the Rossini clock is the fact that it is almost maintenance-free and requires only one power cable. This is quite important to me.

My second dealer tells me not to spend money on any watch other than the rubidium clock from Esoteric. The price of these higher model watches is quite high.

What’s the name of this dealer? I find their view hard to believe.

 

[AudioFanX]

What’s the name of this dealer? I find their view hard to believe.

Let them remain anonymous, but I'd love to hear your opinion on this matter.

 

[chesebert]

Let them remain anonymous, but I'd love to hear your opinion on this matter.

Bartok without APEX sounds different from APEX and Bartok 2.0 wasn’t all that great. So I find his comment of APEX not worthwhile to be odd especially coming from a dCS dealer. I am also skeptical about the clock given Rossini clock looks to be better built. In any case I think external clock is stupid for home applications and a bad design decision by dCS.