[adrianm]

That's just snake oil bs,it's binary,it's either a perfect 0 or it's a 1,no 0.5's exist.The only thing that could affect sq through an usb cable is RF/EMI noise,baring data loss.And good dac design counteracts that.I actually almost believed all this crap before i tested the Vega G1 for myself with the Macbook.

 

[Ciggavelli]

That's just snake oil bs,it's binary,it's either a perfect 0 or it's a 1,no 0.5's exist.The only thing that could affect sq through an usb cable is RF/EMI noise,baring data loss.And good dac design counteracts that.I actually almost believed all this crap before i tested the Vega G1 for myself with the Macbook.

Nah...usb cables are more complex than that. I’ve personally tried a standard usb cable, a cheap “premium” cable (only cost like $20), a Moon Audio Silver Dragon, and Danacables TruStream. There were definitely differences.

Not to keep citing Jay at audiobacon, but he addresses a lot of these issues well:

https://audiobacon.net/2017/09/18/curious-cables-usb-review/

 

[Roasty]

Nah...usb cables are more complex than that. I’ve personally tried a standard usb cable, a cheap “premium” cable (only cost like $20), a Moon Audio Silver Dragon, and Danacables TruStream. There were definitely differences.

Not to keep citing Jay at audiobacon, but he addresses a lot of these issues well:

https://audiobacon.net/2017/09/18/curious-cables-usb-review/

I agree. I have a few of the cables Jay tested. I feel at those price points, they're all good cables with their own characteristics, but for sure an improvement over generic vanilla usb cables.

 

[Jon773]

Yes at the end of the day you can only be convinced one way or another by actually listening and testing it. I did this we a new BJC ethernet cable and an EE 8Switch into my Bartok and there was a difference. A minor improvement, but worth having since it didn't cost me too much.

On the other hand a well reviewed product for power conditioning (Russ Andrews Power Purifier) i have found to make zero difference to my Bartok. No idea why.

Everyone can have a different experience depending on their setup... You just need to accept that and not mouth off at people telling them they spout BS when there are so many folk in both camps. Like i say listen and test. No change, send it back. If it changes and you think its money well spent, then keep what you bought.

 

[adrianm]

Yes at the end of the day you can only be convinced one way or another by actually listening and testing it. I did this we a new BJC ethernet cable and an EE 8Switch into my Bartok and there was a difference. A minor improvement, but worth having since it didn't cost me too much.

On the other hand a well reviewed product for power conditioning (Russ Andrews Power Purifier) i have found to make zero difference to my Bartok. No idea why.

Everyone can have a different experience depending on their setup... You just need to accept that and not mouth off at people telling them they spout BS when there are so many folk in both camps. Like i say listen and test. No change, send it back. If it changes and you think its money well spent, then keep what you bought.

I did test,that was my whole point.Out of a “dirty” gaming pc usb (chord c-line) and optical sound 100% identical .And the vega g1 sounded the same via usb from a macbook vs streaming to itself.Which is why i call bs.Only the isotek mains filters did something,because i have bad power where i live.But to each his own i guess

 

[Jon773]

I did test,that was my whole point.Out of a “dirty” gaming pc usb (chord c-line) and optical sound 100% identical .And the vega g1 sounded the same via usb from a macbook vs streaming to itself.Which is why i call bs.Only the isotek mains filters did something,because i have bad power where i live.But to each his own i guess

You don't seem me calling BS on the mains filter because mine did nothing to the sound in my system... You happen to have had a setup that didn't need or benefit from a better digital cable. But others do hear a difference. My BJC ethernet cable cost me $50 including shipping; its not a fancy cable, but its well made and complies to industry CAT cable standards; and it made a difference in "my system".

 

[koven]

OK, here's a truly innocent question, as I have no skin in the Bartok game -- or any other product for that matter. I have Focal Utopia headphones and a DAP. At some point, I'm going to get a desktop amp and DAC. I could go one way and get a Topping A90/D90 MQA stack or blow it out and get a Bartok. The mid-fi version is is @$1300. The TOTL is @$15,000 or maybe I could get it used for less. What exactly would I be hearing differently on a Bartok that I wouldn't be hearing on a Topping stack? The Utopias don't need a ton of power. Both decode MQA. Given that all amps are advertised as 'not coloring the sound in any way,' I'm curious as to what extra sonic information is conveyed in that $13,000 gap? I could easily be swayed to the high end if I thought there was tangible, noticeable value.

You'd hear $13K worth of 'plankton'.. Don't just dive into a Bartok..nice thing about starting slow is you get to appreciate the changes as you move up. I say go for the Topping then make your way to a CanJam in the future to try out higher end systems.

 

[ClicketEKlack]

You'd hear $13K worth of 'plankton'.. Don't just dive into a Bartok..nice thing about starting slow is you get to appreciate the changes as you move up. I say go for the Topping then make your way to a CanJam in the future to try out higher end systems.

Yeah, that's very wise advice -- thanks!

 

[Articnoise]

That's just snake oil bs,it's binary,it's either a perfect 0 or it's a 1,no 0.5's exist.The only thing that could affect sq through an usb cable is RF/EMI noise,baring data loss.And good dac design counteracts that.I actually almost believed all this crap before i tested the Vega G1 for myself with the Macbook.

If you believe it’s just about 1s and 0s you don’t have to get top DACs like dCS Bartok or optical transmission.

Digital is coded binary, nevertheless the digital signal is analogue. RFI and EMI noise have major negative impact on SQ, but don’t forget Signal integrity, Jitter, Phase noise, Rise and fall time, Signal reflections, Electrical conductivity and Resistance and so on.

 

[adrianm]

If you believe it’s just about 1s and 0s you don’t have to get top DACs like dCS Bartok or optical transmission.

Digital is coded binary, nevertheless the digital signal is analogue. RFI and EMI noise have major negative impact on SQ, but don’t forget Signal integrity, Jitter, Phase noise, Rise and fall time, Signal reflections, Electrical conductivity and Resistance and so on.

Comparing a Dac to a piece of wire is hillarious.This is exactly the same thing everyone who sells a cable says.The only analogue part about the digital signal is the fact that it uses electrical currents to create the wave.You know what else does that? All electronics.So it's about as analogue is my CPU.There's no point in arguing though.If someone spends 3k on a reclocker and it makes him happy,that's his business. I've lost enough time to test it myself and i can tell you a Dave out of 300$ streamer sounds pretty damn close to a 24k NAIM.And on the Auralic Vega G1 the difference was 0 vs a macbook.If signal integrity would really be that bad,the sound would cut out,as most of the sound engineers that are debating this stuff on forums will tell you.And most people don't get the concept of buffering apparently.Or software,surely that can't be why sources sound different, it must be the magic usb elves inside.

 

[Jon773]

Comparing a Dac to a piece of wire is hillarious.This is exactly the same thing everyone who sells a cable says.The only analogue part about the digital signal is the fact that it uses electrical currents to create the wave.You know what else does that? All electronics.So it's about as analogue is my CPU.There's no point in arguing though.If someone spends 3k on a reclocker and it makes him happy,that's his business. I've lost enough time to test it myself and i can tell you a Dave out of 300$ streamer sounds pretty damn close to a 24k NAIM.And on the Auralic Vega G1 the difference was 0 vs a macbook.If signal integrity would really be that bad,the sound would cut out,as most of the sound engineers that are debating this stuff on forums will tell you.And most people don't get the concept of buffering apparently.Or software,surely that can't be why sources sound different, it must be the magic usb elves inside.

You communicate in an immature and offensive way... Closed minded and think one example test gives you the overall answer for the entire topic...

 

[adrianm]

You communicate in an immature and offensive way... Closed minded and think one example test gives you the overall answer for the entire topic...

I guess a month on this forum takes its toll.People believe anything an ad for a product tell them without at least trying to understand basic concepts.And that's fine,confirmation bias is a powerful thing.The problem is people come here looking for advice and take this misinformation for granted.

 

[Articnoise]

Comparing a Dac to a piece of wire is hillarious.This is exactly the same thing everyone who sells a cable says.The only analogue part about the digital signal is the fact that it uses electrical currents to create the wave.You know what else does that? All electronics.So it's about as analogue is my CPU.There's no point in arguing though.If someone spends 3k on a reclocker and it makes him happy,that's his business. I've lost enough time to test it myself and i can tell you a Dave out of 300$ streamer sounds pretty damn close to a 24k NAIM.And on the Auralic Vega G1 the difference was 0 vs a macbook.If signal integrity would really be that bad,the sound would cut out,as most of the sound engineers that are debating this stuff on forums will tell you.And most people don't get the concept of buffering apparently.Or software,surely that can't be why sources sound different, it must be the magic usb elves inside.

I did not compare a DAC to a piece of wire. I said if you believe it’s just about 1s and 0s you don’t have to get top DACs like dCS Bartok, or optical transmission.

In other words why buy a Dave if you believe it all about 1s and 0s? The 1s and 0s that was on a record are the same 1s and 0s on all DACs.

What is Signal Integrity?

“Signal-Integrity refers to all of the design and analysis activities which has the principal goal of preserving the “signal’s shape” (integrity), which in the modern digital electronics boards can be easily affected by interconnection’s noise and losses.”

“Nowadays it is very common to use devices that drive signals with rising and fall times of less than 100 ps, which means that all the interconnections designed to carry those signals should have a bandwidth of, at list, 3.5 GHz. In other words, in order to have an undistorted signal, the interconnections in which the signal travels, must be designed “transparent” for all its spectrum components up to 3.5 GHz. In digital electronics, distorted signals can significantly reduce the timing margins, thus potentially make a system weak under certain working conditions. A fast rise and fall of the signal’s edges is also the main source of cross-talk; this represents another aspect which, during the design process, needs to be considered.”

https://si-exp.com/what-is-signal-integrity/

Extract - Basic Principles of Signal Integrity - Intel

“Digital designs have not traditionally suffered by issues associated with transmission line effects. At lower frequencies the signals remain within data characterization and the system performs as designed. But as system speeds increase, the higher frequency impact on the system means that not only the digital properties, but also the analog effects within the system must be considered. These problems are likely to come to the forefront with increasing data rates for both I/O interfaces and memory interfaces, but particularly with the high-speed transceiver technology being embedded into FPGAs.”

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/wp/wp_sgnlntgry.pdf

 

[endre83]

Uh Uh - let them fight!

To make it short: Is anyone who has abondend a Chord TT2/Mscaler/ Dave for a Bartok unhappy with the decision?

 

[adrianm]

I did not compare a DAC to a piece of wire. I said if you believe it’s just about 1s and 0s you don’t have to get top DACs like dCS Bartok, or optical transmission.

In other words why buy a Dave if you believe it all about 1s and 0s? The 1s and 0s that was on a record are the same 1s and 0s on all DACs.

What is Signal Integrity?

“Signal-Integrity refers to all of the design and analysis activities which has the principal goal of preserving the “signal’s shape” (integrity), which in the modern digital electronics boards can be easily affected by interconnection’s noise and losses.”

“Nowadays it is very common to use devices that drive signals with rising and fall times of less than 100 ps, which means that all the interconnections designed to carry those signals should have a bandwidth of, at list, 3.5 GHz. In other words, in order to have an undistorted signal, the interconnections in which the signal travels, must be designed “transparent” for all its spectrum components up to 3.5 GHz. In digital electronics, distorted signals can significantly reduce the timing margins, thus potentially make a system weak under certain working conditions. A fast rise and fall of the signal’s edges is also the main source of cross-talk; this represents another aspect which, during the design process, needs to be considered.”

https://si-exp.com/what-is-signal-integrity/

Extract - Basic Principles of Signal Integrity - Intel

“Digital designs have not traditionally suffered by issues associated with transmission line effects. At lower frequencies the signals remain within data characterization and the system performs as designed. But as system speeds increase, the higher frequency impact on the system means that not only the digital properties, but also the analog effects within the system must be considered. These problems are likely to come to the forefront with increasing data rates for both I/O interfaces and memory interfaces, but particularly with the high-speed transceiver technology being embedded into FPGAs.”

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/wp/wp_sgnlntgry.pdf

Just linking basic principles of stuff doesn't prove usb cables/sources magically transform dacs.So you believe the people who made the FPGA's are just smart to build them,but dumb enough not to follow basic principles so that they work properly.They need AQ to buy some cheap cables from China and overprice them,or Joe blow from the forums that just made his own cable.
Because Usb cable manufacturers just completely ignore those specifications.You know there are minimum requirements to be met right? There are usb cables above the 50 cent ones that come with the Dacs.And they don't necesarily have to cost a grand.
Noticed how "audiophile " cables are mostly 2.0 and cat 5/6 but not 7,which is superior.