[beeman458]

If you just ignore your teeth, they will eventually go away!

 

 

 
Do you like your music __________ (fill in whatever adjective(s) you wish)?  Does the gear sound ____________?
 
Smooth and laid back.  Definitely not up front and in your face and that's why I like discrete component parts over IC's attached to a neutral sound.  I'm sure I'd get along with tubes fine also as I have a Golden Tube amp for the tweeters.  That and I'm partial to decent recordings that a revealing system won't pick apart.
 

 
You might be surprised, but even if your not, you are exposing yourself to what changes in your system sound like.
 
I knew somewhere there was a monkey wrench to be thrown into the gears.  I'm not an experimenter.  I'm a do the research, buy the gear, install, die in place while listening kind of guy.
 
"No $#it, there he was, looked like he hadn't taken his headphones off in decades.  He looked happy."
 

 

[computerparts]

This is something that you just have to experiment for yourself. No one can tell you what "good enough" will be. I highly doubt you will find just one dac and want to stop there. The signature sounds of different dacs differ in so many ways just like different speakers. You may think one esoteric level dac doesn't sound as good as a mid level dac due to their different signatures and your preferences. And then there's dedicated transports, but that's another story and not related since you're using a computer. I can tell you my experience. The level of diminishing returns did not come for me until thousands of dollars after my first dac. The dac that made me realize the level of diminishing returns was an mbl 1511D which originally retailed for around $10k. I tried the next model up, the 1611D which originally sold for $20k and to me the difference was negligible and not enough to justify the higher cost.
 
So for me, the level of diminishing returns was in the esoteric category. If your music is stored on the computer, I would never recommend spending the max amount of your budget on a dac. Not unless you start spinning discs. IMO due to the limitations of using the computer as a transport, you will not gain much with dacs in those price ranges over lesser dacs. Look into an MHDT Paradisea 3 as a starting point. You can find them used for around $400 or new for $599 direct from the manufacturer and they have usb input. Some people have preferred this dac over some esoteric level gear. I have never heard it myself, but it comes highly recommended. I believe it would be a good way of getting your feet wet without a lot of risk involved.

 

[Epoch]

Well, a small update on my findings for you beeman458, I have been using my DAC19DSP/C2 as a source/preamp for my speakers using an RCA input of my receiver.  It does pretty much everything I noticed with my headphones, there is a very serious improvement in the soundstage.  And I had been testing my Essence STX through my C2 in the same situation, and that setup sounded quite similar to my receiver using a direct SPDIF connection.  See my profile if you want more details on the gear, but either way, it does make a difference that is noticeable, and not possible with the Essence STX.
 
So I think that I can safely say that the DAC19DSP is certainly an upgrade, and quite nice.  Since you are concerned about using Paypal, there are some resellers of Audio-GD gear that are mentioned on the Audio-GD website.  I also don't know if Kingwa will accept bank transfers, since he lists some details for a US dollar bank account when you go here: http://www.audio-gd.com/PurchaseEN.htm
 
If you have any other questions, let me know, but I think I might have reached the end of my utility on this topic.

 

[realmassy]

 
Quote:

Having a great system (which means taking into account all relevant aspects, synergy, relative performance, etc) has an effect on folks that tends to turn them into serious listeners, not because they like the looks of the gear (although decent looking stuff is an attraction all in itself that holds more sway than it should, IMO at least) but rather it gives one the core immediate pleasure that great music being played back in a great system can bring.

 
In my experience, every time I tried to build a good system (an 'audiophile' system) I ended up being less music lover and more 'gear lover'.
 
What I mean is I used to pay more attention on sound than on music, on recording quality, discarding a lot of great albums, because they didn't sound well in my rig.
It happened with my speaker system, and it happened recently with headphones.
The real listening pleasure (at least in my experience) doesn't come from a great system, but from the music you play.
IMHO, of course

 

[gsilver]

My $0.02:
 
My current home setup is as follows:
HD650 headphones
MDR-SA5000 headphones
Matrix M-Stage amp
Source 1: XA5400ES CD player (by far the most expensive component in the setup)
Source 2: Apple Lossless/iPod Touch + Onkyo ND-S1 + DacMagic
Source 3: Sony NS975 DVD player (no longer in use)
 
In my experience (beyond the source material itself), the choice of headphones makes by far the greatest difference, amp second, and the DAC a distant third. 
 
Switching from the iPod Touch by itself (line-out) to the NS975 (both amped with the M-Stage) is akin to removing a sock from the speaker... very noticeable.
Switching from the NS975 to the DacMagic provides greater instrument separation with close listening, but not immediately detectable.
Switching from the DacMagic to the XA5400ES provides overall better definition, especially with certain instruments (like bass guitars) and is a bigger step than the NS975 to the DacMagic... but isn't immediately detectable and is a vastly smaller difference than going from the iPod to the NS975
Switching between the NS975 and the iPod Touch (using lossless files) + ND-S1, both using digital coax to the DacMagic, provides no discernable difference
 
 
On the other hand, on the iPod, switching from no amp to the M-Stage makes a huge difference, a greater one than between any of the sources.
Also, switching from the XA5400ES's built-in amp to the M-Stage provides a real 'fullness' to the music (especially noticeable with the SA5000)
The difference in amps, IMO, is larger than between any of the sources, excluding the ipod.
 
Then, looking at headphones, I'd say that there's a much greater difference between the MDR-SA5000s and the HD650s than between any other piece of gear (SA5K wins in clarity and "feel" of the music, HD650 is more pleasant overall, and better for longer-term listening; both are pretty good).
 
I also have an HD595 at work (source: iPod Touch, either unamped or with a Fii0 E5). I've taken it home a few times, and there's a larger difference in quality between it and the HD650 than any of the sources (excluding the ipod).
 
 
So, subjectively speaking, a *good* DVD player (which the NS975 is), is *good enough*, and a good entry-level dedicated DAC is certainly good enough. There are benefits to better sources, but the difference is *small*, especially compared to other gear. I haven't tried other amps, but the M-Stage certainly seems *good enough*. As for the headphones themselves... I'm going to upgrade

 
I like a lot of what the SA5000s do, but they can be overly harsh at times and exaggerate the treble a bit to much. The HD650s are easily more pleasant sounding, but by comparison they lack in detail, speed, and are very noticeably "veiled". If I had a set that had the good qualities of both... I'd be a happy camper.

 

[beeman458]

computerparts wrote:
 
This is something that you just have to experiment for yourself. No one can tell you what "good enough" will be. I highly doubt you will find just one dac and want to stop there. The signature sounds of different dacs differ in so many ways just like different speakers. You may think one esoteric level dac doesn't sound as good as a mid level dac due to their different signatures and your preferences. And then there's dedicated transports, but that's another story and not related since you're using a computer. I can tell you my experience. The level of diminishing returns did not come for me until thousands of dollars after my first dac. The dac that made me realize the level of diminishing returns was an mbl 1511D which originally retailed for around $10k. I tried the next model up, the 1611D which originally sold for $20k and to me the difference was negligible and not enough to justify the higher cost.
 
Good advice but advice I can't afford.  I have the usual fiscal obligations that come along with supporting two homes and a college age son.  The point, dad's toys come last.  Boo, hoo.  But I can evaluate what's been written here and bounce that off reviews and spousal conversations to get a 3-D meta-analysis of the question.  As to the title of the OP, I have found that DAC's are enigmatic to all, including their makers, hence why there's so many versions of the same idea and no one can define the beast.
 
So for me, the level of diminishing returns was in the esoteric category. If your music is stored on the computer, I would never recommend spending the max amount of your budget on a dac. Not unless you start spinning discs. IMO due to the limitations of using the computer as a transport, you will not gain much with dacs in those price ranges over lesser dacs. Look into an MHDT Paradisea 3 as a starting point. You can find them used for around $400 or new for $599 direct from the manufacturer and they have usb input. Some people have preferred this dac over some esoteric level gear. I have never heard it myself, but it comes highly recommended. I believe it would be a good way of getting your feet wet without a lot of risk involved.
 
I was posed an interesting statement today by my wife as a dichotomy has developed between her listening philosophy and mine, which revolves around how audiophiles listen to music Vs how the general listening public listens to music.  As audiophiles, we tend to slowly lose ourselves into the esoteric stratosphere and unknowingly, we forget what the original goal was, to drain the swamp.  So once again, I need to pull myself out of the esoteric and bring myself back to Kansas.  What that means is that I need to define what Kansas is Vs what the land of Oz is.  I love the land of Oz.  I also like drug therapy.  But neither doctors or reality allows me to dwell in either too long because I might permanently get lost there.  The point, I find that successfully sleuthing out a DAC is as much mechanical is it is philosophical.  In order to make a proper choice, one has to not only do their mechanical homework but must do a bit of navel gazing.  In truth, today, I came to the conclusion that the answer depends on what the navel dust has to say.
 
What does the naval dust have to say in truth:
 
I'll keep my options open.  That means the unit I choose has to have balanced capabilities.
 
I like the best I can afford and a reasonable budget has been set; up to $1,500.00 (USD).  I'm not the government and since this is the people's money, all of the budget doesn't need to be expended.
 
The DAC or DAC's used, do make a difference, so the DAC used, acts as a pointer.
 
Reviews have been read, as there's so many choices, how many choices can a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck DAC's?
 
I prefer discrete over IC's, just because I've read that discrete has the, overall, better sound quality; not a deal breaker.
 
And when I sort through all the lint, the recommended W4S DAC-2 comes out of the bottom of the pile.
 
And then the desire for several lesser priced pieces of Audio-gd gear comes along and kicks the W4S gear out of the track lane.
 
And then the question comes along, what about DAC/Amp separates for the bookshelf; Audio-gd NFB-1/ROC?
 
And then I listen to the next song in the queue and wonder, what does good sound sound like if this isn't good sound?
 
???

 

[beeman458]

Epoch wrote:
 
Well, a small update on my findings for you beeman458, I have been using my DAC19DSP/C2 as a source/preamp for my speakers using an RCA input of my receiver.  It does pretty much everything I noticed with my headphones, there is a very serious improvement in the soundstage.  And I had been testing my Essence STX through my C2 in the same situation, and that setup sounded quite similar to my receiver using a direct SPDIF connection.  See my profile if you want more details on the gear, but either way, it does make a difference that is noticeable, and not possible with the Essence STX.
 
Thanks for that input as the DAC19DSP keeps surfacing, no matter how I try to weight my choices; aside from balanced output.
 
So I think that I can safely say that the DAC19DSP is certainly an upgrade, and quite nice.  Since you are concerned about using Paypal, there are some resellers of Audio-GD gear that are mentioned on the Audio-GD website.  I also don't know if Kingwa will accept bank transfers, since he lists some details for a US dollar bank account when you go here: http://www.audio-gd.com/PurchaseEN.htm
 
FWIW, I corresponded with Kingwa regarding payment, and being the lazy buck I've become, I'm not wanting to jump through any more payment hoops above postal money order or credit card.  Kinda cuts me short when limiting deal making in this fashion so I'm having to have conversation with myself regarding this matter.
 
If you have any other questions, let me know, but I think I might have reached the end of my utility on this topic.
 
Thanks, I sure do appreciate your efforts.
 
Thomas

 

[beeman458]

gsilver wrote:
 
In my experience (beyond the source material itself), the choice of headphones makes by far the greatest difference, amp second, and the DAC a distant third.
 
I like you taking the time to rank your choices.  I find your comment "...and the DAC a distant third.", to be interesting as it says the DAC has the least impact on the chain yet folks write how big the sonic difference is.
 
Switching from the iPod Touch by itself (line-out) to the NS975 (both amped with the M-Stage) is akin to removing a sock from the speaker... very noticeable.
Switching from the NS975 to the DacMagic provides greater instrument separation with close listening, but not immediately detectable.
Switching from the DacMagic to the XA5400ES provides overall better definition, especially with certain instruments (like bass guitars) and is a bigger step than the NS975 to the DacMagic... but isn't immediately detectable and is a vastly smaller difference than going from the iPod to the NS975
Switching between the NS975 and the iPod Touch (using lossless files) + ND-S1, both using digital coax to the DacMagic, provides no discernable difference
 
On the other hand, on the iPod, switching from no amp to the M-Stage makes a huge difference, a greater one than between any of the sources.
Also, switching from the XA5400ES's built-in amp to the M-Stage provides a real 'fullness' to the music (especially noticeable with the SA5000)
The difference in amps, IMO, is larger than between any of the sources, excluding the ipod.
 
Then, looking at headphones, I'd say that there's a much greater difference between the MDR-SA5000s and the HD650s than between any other piece of gear (SA5K wins in clarity and "feel" of the music, HD650 is more pleasant overall, and better for longer-term listening; both are pretty good).
 
I also have an HD595 at work (source: iPod Touch, either unamped or with a Fii0 E5). I've taken it home a few times, and there's a larger difference in quality between it and the HD650 than any of the sources (excluding the ipod).
 
So, subjectively speaking, a *good* DVD player (which the NS975 is), is *good enough*, and a good entry-level dedicated DAC is certainly good enough. There are benefits to better sources, but the difference is *small*, especially compared to other gear. I haven't tried other amps, but the M-Stage certainly seems *good enough*. As for the headphones themselves... I'm going to upgrade

 
Your efforts above, steer me in the direction of an Audio DAC-19DSP and then the round robin thinking kicks in as I let the other choices do laps in my head.
 
I like a lot of what the SA5000s do, but they can be overly harsh at times and exaggerate the treble a bit to much. The HD650s are easily more pleasant sounding, but by comparison they lack in detail, speed, and are very noticeably "veiled". If I had a set that had the good qualities of both... I'd be a happy camper.
 
I fully quoted your above forward as in it's own way, your efforts mirror my angst as I'm trying to use research to do your above.  You put yourself through what I consider to be a crazy amount of effort.  I also note that you feel that too much emphasis is directed in the direction of the DAC.
 
???
 
Wow!  A tip of the hat is in order and a hearty thanks for taking the time to share you sojourn.  What a trip.

 

[beeman458]

realmassy, I see from another thread (post #21) you picked up an Audio-gd Ref5DSP.  Now that you've had it a while, what's your opinion?
 
I'm winding my way through the thread but there's twenty-five pages.
 

 

[Mr.Sneis]

His impression is quite well hidden but I found this:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/508162/new-ess-sabre32-es9018-based-dac-from-audio-gd-the-nfb-1/120#post_6884349
 
Definitely caught my interest.

 

[Mr.Sneis]

Quote:

 
In my experience (beyond the source material itself), the choice of headphones makes by far the greatest difference, amp second, and the DAC a distant third. 
 
Switching from the iPod Touch by itself (line-out) to the NS975 (both amped with the M-Stage) is akin to removing a sock from the speaker... very noticeable.
Switching from the NS975 to the DacMagic provides greater instrument separation with close listening, but not immediately detectable.
Switching from the DacMagic to the XA5400ES provides overall better definition, especially with certain instruments (like bass guitars) and is a bigger step than the NS975 to the DacMagic... but isn't immediately detectable and is a vastly smaller difference than going from the iPod to the NS975
Switching between the NS975 and the iPod Touch (using lossless files) + ND-S1, both using digital coax to the DacMagic, provides no discernable difference
 

I dunno if I would 100% agree with this.  Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but there have been times when I was absolutely floored by the difference in the source when keeping all else constant; my experience with the XA5400ES by the way has been nothing short of highly impressed, it's an awesome transport/dac.  For me, when the magic is there something clicks in my brain and I just know it's right!  The phones absolutely are the biggest factor of sound change though.

 

[realmassy]

Quote:

realmassy, I see from another thread (post #21) you picked up an Audio-gd Ref5DSP.  Now that you've had it a while, what's your opinion?
 
I'm winding my way through the thread but there's twenty-five pages.
 

I sold it two weeks ago
But, as I stated a few post above, it's due to the fact I'm probably not a 'audiophile'. The Ref.5 is a great dac, but it's too polite for my taste.
 
It's very revealing of (bad) recordings, and I have many of them, especially classical and jazz from '50 and '60.
I was spending too much time with audiophile recordings (you know, Linn, Chesky etc etc) because they really sounded perfect. But I have many old recordings, way superior from an artistic point of view. More than 200 Blue Note cds that I couldn't listen because the recording is very bright.
 
Also, the whole Audio-GD rig (Roc + Ref.5) was so 'fragile', not consistent, due to their revealing qualities, so every cable change or different software used to play files from my Mini was affecting the quality. Initially it was funny, but in the long term I simply didn't enjoy my music. And I always wanted to get more, because I could hear the differences!!
 
I'm using now a Valab nos (as a temporary solution) and a Earmax headphone amp (I'm waiting for a Woo3), and I'm enjoying the smooth and laid back signature, and all my music library
The Valab is technically inferior to the Ref.5 (and probably to the DacMagic and the V-DAC I used to own), no doubt about it: the soundstage is narrow, instruments separation almost non-existent... but those are not the qualities I'm after.. OK, probably head-fi is not the right place for me!! 

 

[realmassy]

Quote:

His impression is quite well hidden but I found this:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/508162/new-ess-sabre32-es9018-based-dac-from-audio-gd-the-nfb-1/120#post_6884349
 
Definitely caught my interest.

Yep! I got really discouraged there!! I was trying to listen that Mahler's symphony...I wanted to listen to it for 3 months, and every time I had to stop, get my laptop and plug my IE8 into its headphones jack!!

 

[bauerpower]

Based on my own experience I would say the money u spend on a DAc should be tiny compared to how much u spend on the speakers or in our case the headphones.  The $1500+ standalone DACs are for people with $10,000+ speakers behind them.  Those DACs are serious overkill for the little headphones we play with. I'd devote no more than 10% of the system budget on the DAC and then 20-25% on the amp and the all the rest would be spent on headphones.  So for a 3k system Id spend 300 on the DAC, 700 on the amp and 2000 on a couple of very nice headphones.

 

[Albedo]

DIY is the answer to the apparent tautology, just take your pick of one of these: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/325941/all-the-dacs-money-can-buy-pt-2
 
I smiled when I was scrolling down the list and nearly at the bottom found a DAC costing $15,470 and featured a pair of Philips TDA1541A (double crown) from the year 1989 and the analogue stage was.. guess what?
 
Tubes, what does The almighty Stereophile Inc. say about ancient technology with a modern implementation?
Quote:

I did listen long into the night on many occasions, and found myself pulling out, rediscovering, and becoming musically and emotionally involved in CDs I'd long ago concluded were dead meat.

 
So what is it all about, does the question really by the power of a mark need anything? No, just a simple word or sentence followed by an exclamation mark!
 
I'm still holding on to my DAC that I bought back in '97, the macrodynamic on that thing is really that great. Not as detailed when I come to think about it, but fitting it with some discrete opamps and UWB Regulators takes care of any concern that I might have, then it's up to date and tweaked out. As for the soundcard in my computer and accompanied headphones, I've made my choice as it's mainly going to play back highly compressed material found on the net and needs to be somewhat mellow and forgiving. Cost is my main concern, but I know enough to take an educated guess and stick by it.
 
A funny fact is that a test with identical loudspeakers, the one painted red sound that much better, how is such a thing even possible...
 
.. here's the answer -> http://www.overclockers.com.au/pic.php?pic=images/newspics/17sep10/8.jpg
 
Edit: Changed year as non A version was 1985, the A version came at the end of the eighties.