[beeman458]

haloxt wrote:
 
beeman458, all throughout this thread you say meaningless things like
 
It wasn't meaningless and I'll look forward to you posting anything I've written, present or past that qualifies as "meaningless."
 
Someone who is really interested in finding out what % he is at will test out higher end gear and judge for himself.
 
I'm sorry that I have neither the money to order and try out the many possibilities, nor do I have any retail stores that have headphone amps to try out and buy from.  So much for this being a forum where participants are willing to "share" their personal experiences with the many different offerings available.
 
and when you go and say something like we have never done it,
 
Nowhere in the thread did I write that?  I did write that it's not being done in this thread and as of your post, it's still not being done.
 
it just shows me how futile it would be to keep participating in this thread. Unsubscribing.
 
Now all of a sudden, my angst is your angst.
 
Jeez, if you don't know, or can't give a rational answer, just say so.  I'll be sure to discuss your post with my wife so she can get a better idea of the thoughtful responses, ignorants, such as myself, have to deal with.
 

 
And yes, since it's also her money, I include her in the process.  It helps her understand why it's so difficult to make a rational/educated choice as opposed to just throwing money at the question, keeping your fingers crossed and hoping that you land with a product that's worth a Tinker's Damn.
 

 
Do you guys always have to try and pick an online fight when you can't give informative replies?
 
???
 
I'm sure it's just me but I enjoy answering questions when somebody asks a question I can help them with.  I also enjoy trying to help them through their ignorance to help give them a footing or a base in which to move their sojourn forward.  Doing so gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling one gets, knowing that they've helped another.
 
To me, DACs are just that, a digital to analogue converter.  If there's a rational reason one is going be better than another, when the same DAC is the base of the design, to those knowing their stuff, it should be easy to articulate the differences.
 
It's not rational to say, throw money at the idea until you find yourself happy, especially when it's an experienced person giving the suggestion.  Nowhere in our society is this considered an acceptable form of training; keep jumping off the cliff until you get it right.
 

 
???

 

[Albedo]

I find this post in another thread quite.. interesting: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/476384/auzentech-x-raider#post_6491943
 
.. and the sudden lack of any further questions or comments for that matter, hmm..
 
So a cheap Auzentech X-Raider + Audio-GD - OPA-Earth = enough for some, this make sense moneywise. Adding to the equation a Phillips SHP5401 that some on this board prefer more than a Sennheiser HD650: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/323535/sometimes-cans-suprise-you-philips-shp5400
 
Is this right, just paying $110 and your somewhere in the borderland between Mid-Fi and Hi-Fi?

 

[beeman458]

Albedo wrote:
 
Is this right, just paying $110 and your somewhere in the borderland between Mid-Fi and Hi-Fi?
 
Let's see what the last line was that was written:
 
some will say that I'm just polishing a turd...well, I got the board for 15€ second hand on ebay, the Burson V2 for 55€ on audiophonics.fr...what I'm hearing as I'm typing this sounds far better than the 70€(±USD90) price tag could lead to believe

 
Sounds like he was modding a card and was proud of the results.  Good for him.
 
Me, I'm asking about stand alone DAC's and asking how good do your really need to get before you enter the world of the esoteric and what are the benefits of the different price points up to $1,500.00.
 
???
 
I'm trying to get a question answered.  I'm not trying to find reason to rag on another person's thread.
 
???
 
If you guys don't know and can't articulate an answer, just say so.
 
"Gee dude, I'd like to help you but I ain't got an answer for you."
 
My response would be; "Cool, thanks for the thought."
 

 
All I want is to find out the benefit of the different price points, read up on what's available in those price points, buy once and have a nice life.  So far three choices have risen to the top, the Audio-gd REF-7 and the NFB-7, which I'm partial to for it's descrete design but I don't do PayPal and WYRED 4 Sound's DAC2 for it's flat response and low jitter clock rate.  After talking to Rick at WYRED 4 Sound, I also found out the the DAC2 has a 2vrms output with a remote control that would allow the DAC2 to also act as a headphone amp.  A two-fer if you will as, stating the obvious, you'd have both a high end DAC and headphone amp, all in one enclosure; less circuitry and interconnects in which to degrade the signal.

 

[K3cT]

Uh, beeman458 pardon me but it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that upgrading to a better DAC is not worth the premium. I have to agree with haloxt here as there is nothing else that can be said if you remain skeptical of jumping into the fray. Why don't you try something in the middle road first like the NuForce HDP that have return guarantee so you can refund it in case it doesn't make an appreciable difference in your system?

 

[beeman458]

Uh, beeman458 pardon me but it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that upgrading to a better DAC is not worth the premium.
 
With all due respect, nowhere in any of my posts have I intimated that point nor at anytime is that the purpose of this thread.  The purpose of the thread was and still is, to get an answer to a reasonable question regarding differences between price points and what is the dividing line between esoteric purchases and real life usage purpose.
 
So far, I've put some two thousand dollars into this question.  So for one to write that I don't think it's worth the premium, is being disingenuous at best.  Several times I've stated that I'm ready to drop up to fifteen hundred dollars on this DAC purchase and that's hardly a person shirking a purchase premium.  So far, I've put a phone call into one product vendor and our conversation wasn't very encouraging in that he could talk about features and quality of parts but only could speak of reviewer's comments and IIRC, nothing that defined his gear over another's gear.  He did say that if I bought his product, I'd get tighter bass, a wider sound stage and sweeter highs, but did so "after" I told him what I was looking for, not before when he could have come right out and said what his gear was capable of.  I knew exactly what was happening in the conversation as we spoke to each other, me feeding him lines and knew this before I spoke my words.  Very discouraging, on my part.  And FWIW, I have also taken the time to give NuForce a call and discuss issues with their upgraded OPPO BDP-83SE, my first go to choice for the combined media choices and quality of internal parts that it brings to the table.  Again, not very encouraging in that I went away with the impression that buying the less expensive OPPO made version, as opposed to the ungraded version was the correct way to go.
 
I have to agree with haloxt here as there is nothing else that can be said if you remain skeptical of jumping into the fray.
 
haloxt couldn't answer the question and came up with a cover story.  For what reason I don't know nor am I going try to guess but I have my well grounded suspicions as to why he wrote what he wrote in response to my questions.  As to jumping into the fray, aside from not wanting to waste my money, as I write, I am in the fray but, I'm in it as an intelligent and experienced adult.  What I'm not in it as, is as one who's wishing and a hope-in that it all turns out all right.  In all honesty, not meaning to be offensive in my next, but nothing that would qualify as insightful has been written regarding the OP.  Yes, for me, the OP, that's very frustrating.  If someone doesn't know, why even post?
 
Why don't you try something in the middle road first like the NuForce HDP that have return guarantee so you can refund it in case it doesn't make an appreciable difference in your system?
 
Thank you for your above thought and again, with all due respect, I don't find that to be an acceptable way of doing research.  Others might find this method acceptable but personally, I'm not into buying, trying, returning and buying again in hopes of finding a DAC that works.  In it's own way, what this thread has glaringly exposed is that people know far less about DAC's then they're willing to openly acknowledge.  People who know what they're writing about are able to "easily" articulate differences and so far, "nobody" has been willing to articulate differences between price points.  Hopefully, my above will encourage those who are able to, to share the wisdom of their knowledge and experiences regarding differences.
 
As much as I "hate" DBT in regard to cables, I'm fast beginning to come to the conclusion that they're valid in the case of Amps and DAC's and there's truth to be had from using DBT's in matters of this kind.  Aside from better quality parts for better end use specs, so far, nobody has been able to articulate what one gets by stepping up to the next price point level and this point and this point alone should cause all readers of this thread to stop and take pause regarding their next DAC purchase.
 
So far, what this thread has taught me is that purchasing a DAC is a crap shoot and you throws your money on the table and you takes your chances.  Hardly a glowing testimonial as to the sound quality level of the various DAC choices available.  And hardly a method any rational parent would teach to their child.  Very frustrating in the least.  So please, if one can't articulate differences between price points or differences between DAC's, as the OP, I ask that you lurk and don't post as there's no point in posting if you don't have a rational answer other than jump off the cliff and take your chances on the way down.  That would be kind of you.  A bit of serious, insightful conversation would be gratefully appreciated in regard to this matter.
 

 

[Albedo]

The post that I linked to leeperry said:

I strongly believe that opamps color the sound far more than DAC's ever will.

 
He then linked to another post on this board, where he said:

opamps make much bigger differences than DAC's IME...LT1028ACN8/AD797BR sound identical on a PCM1793(8X oversampling) or an AK4396(128X oversampling)

don't get too hung up on the audiophoolism some ppl like to use as a hard proof to show off their 4 figures DAC...hardly anyone measures a DAC output w/ an oscilloscope IRL

 
In that post he had a link to another board: http://forum.rightmark.org/topic.cgi?id=4:504-3
 
Reading marcello's posts in that thread might shed some light on the question at hand.

 

[beeman458]

Albedo wrote:
 
Reading marcello's posts in that thread might shed some light on the question at hand.
 
First, thanks for the thoughtful (insightful) link.  After reading the well thought out post, more confusion arose in that it seemed the OpAmp of choice was more important that the actual DAC design itself.
 
???
 
I have a couple sets of different OpAmps but haven't gotten into the rolling OpAmp phase as I was waiting on the STX to get broken in.  No point in rolling OpAmps when the Amp in question, isn't broken in.  Ironically, the guy over at Ray Samuals Audio, according to what I've read, goes so far as to cover over with nail polish the information which defines what OpAmp he uses.  And in e-mail correspondences, won't post his specs either.  Says read the reviews and buy from what the reviewer says and that's as good as he's going get.  Sorry, that doesn't cut the sales mustard with this old man; no sale.  Business' with customer service attitudes such as this, that are so customer unfriendly, more often than not, end up out of business as opposed to expanding their business.  Why?  Cause without customers, you don't have a business.  Me?  Give me a "good" reason to hit the hip.  Read the reviews, is a cop out and not a good reason to buy into a business's product line.
 
???
 
I'm a big fan of discrete circuit design such as what Kingwa does at Audio-gd, especially his discrete OpAmp designs.  Why?  Because they are shown by others to make a positive difference in the sound quality.  But I don't do PayPal as I don't want PayPal having access to my banking information.  Call me overly cautious but there's too much identity theft going on these days for me to relax on this point, just to buy a DAC I can live without.  If one can't do postal money order or credit card purchase, I don't need to be doing business in matters of this kind.  The last item I bought was a discrete circuit designed Burson HA-160 headphone amp.  It was purchased used off the buy/sell forum.  Paid for it with a US postal money order, mailed next day.  Other than the waiting, very painless.  Should arrive via FedEx today.
 

 

[Albedo]

As of January this year another option for discrete opamp is a danish company with US distribution:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/opamp_dexa.html
 
Doesn't look as shoddy as Burson HD Audio opamp and under half the THD, more info. here:
http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=55

 

[beeman458]

Thanks Albedo.  Information like that makes you want to get into modding as opposed to buying into upgrades.
 
Gives me some new ideas.
 

 

 

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Simple - When you are happy with what you hear (over the long term).
 
Peete.
 

 

[beeman458]

Simple - When you are happy with what you hear (over the long term).
 
Thanks for the thought Peete but in truth, I can't afford the advice.  Too old so not enough time or money.  But in my travels, I found this review of the Audio-gd DAC19.  Not exactly what one can reasonably expect out of a thread of this kind but wow, sure is a lot of good insight many here can learn from.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/483899/review-of-the-audio-gd-dac-19-dsp-c2-amp-the-acss-connection
 
The good thing about this review is, it's given me insight of what one should be looking for in a DAC.  In this case, the above linked review has steered me away from the DAC19 (Which wasn't on the table) and back towards either the future proof NFB-7 or the increase in budget, future proof Ref-7.  The review has also kicked over a renewed curiosity of what the newly acquired Amp will bring to the table as the reviewer is as harsh of a critic as I've read.  Good for him.
 
FWIW, I'm an old man.  What that means is I've got a boatload of buying experience, which means I have a boatload of using product experience.  What that means is, I know that it's better to do your research first rather than last.
 

 
 
 
 
 

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Well the Burson Audio amp is nothing more than a parred down Audio-gd C2C (which I have). The RE7 is a balanced DAC as is the NFB-7 so it makes little sense to buy one of those to partner it with an amp like the Burson. However if you plan on going balanced down the road then the RE/NFB a-gd dacs are a terrific value and unbeatable in terms of SQ (IMO) for the price asked. You certainly have clued into the trend around here rather quickly. Are you the kind of guy that wants to make a number of small purchases (working his way up the tree) or do you want to make one giant leap and go straight for the top ? The DAC19DSP would be a good match with the Burson I'm willing to bet. A better combo would the C2/DAC19DSP. The C2 is the replacement for the C-2C.
 
The latter has advantages for us old farts who know what they want...while the former has a pleasant learning curve that makes one appreciate the huge leap between a SC and cheap headphones to a separates system on the edge of TOTL SOTA...the vast gulf in performance is truly mind boggling once you've sampled the goods in person. I'm also getting a little long in the tooth FWIW and have been at this game for 4 decades now....love music, just not 8 track tapes (or the crappy players).
 
Peete.
 
PS: I have a decent SC (the Auzen Prelude) that acts as a transport to my DAC and outboard amp. The Auzen used as a DAC is truly awful compared to the current DAC I'm using (which is nothing too special). I'm talking about the casual music system here...the ref system is strictly used with speakers as I much prefer that to headphones (although I do like what cans can do that speakers can't).

 

[replytoken]

Quote:

 
Thank you for your above thought and again, with all due respect, I don't find that to be an acceptable way of doing research.  Others might find this method acceptable but personally, I'm not into buying, trying, returning and buying again in hopes of finding a DAC that works.  In it's own way, what this thread has glaringly exposed is that people know far less about DAC's then they're willing to openly acknowledge.  People who know what they're writing about are able to "easily" articulate differences and so far, "nobody" has been willing to articulate differences between price points.  Hopefully, my above will encourage those who are able to, to share the wisdom of their knowledge and experiences regarding differences.
 
As much as I "hate" DBT in regard to cables, I'm fast beginning to come to the conclusion that they're valid in the case of Amps and DAC's and there's truth to be had from using DBT's in matters of this kind.  Aside from better quality parts for better end use specs, so far, nobody has been able to articulate what one gets by stepping up to the next price point level and this point and this point alone should cause all readers of this thread to stop and take pause regarding their next DAC purchase.
 
So far, what this thread has taught me is that purchasing a DAC is a crap shoot and you throws your money on the table and you takes your chances.  Hardly a glowing testimonial as to the sound quality level of the various DAC choices available.  And hardly a method any rational parent would teach to their child.  Very frustrating in the least.  So please, if one can't articulate differences between price points or differences between DAC's, as the OP, I ask that you lurk and don't post as there's no point in posting if you don't have a rational answer other than jump off the cliff and take your chances on the way down.  That would be kind of you.  A bit of serious, insightful conversation would be gratefully appreciated in regard to this matter.

 
While I have complete sympathy for your desire to possibly update your DAC, as I am currently in the process of updating my preamplifier, I would encourage you to give a bit less consideration to the price:quality relationship and a bit more to what synergizes best with your system.  I recently brought home four different preamplifiers at different price points for auditions, and there was very little correlation between what I found sounded best in my system and their respective prices.  In an ideal world, more money would always buy you a better product.  But as there are so many variables in audio, I personally believe that unelss you audition equipment in your own system in your own home, you are in a "crap shoot".  Forum posts can help a bit with initial research, but in the end, I always trust my ears.  Yes, its a real pain in the back side to auditon this type of equipment, but there are some dealers and manufacturers who do not make it a hassle.  In the long run, it may get you the product you want without needing to make multiple purchases.  I wish you luck.  And I, too, will be shopping for a DAC shortly.
 
--Ken

 

 

[beeman458]

Pricklely Peete wrote:
 
Well the Burson Audio amp is nothing more than a parred down Audio-gd C2C (which I have).
 
From my research, I got the opposite impression that it was a couple of steps up.  One problem with it though, it's very revealing.  It arrived this afternoon and is hooked up.  I'm listening to it now as I type.  It killed some of the recordings on the "Bridge Over Troubled Water" CD and sadly showed that the sound engineer pushed the piano too far forward in a K.D. Lang song.
 
The RE7 is a balanced DAC as is the NFB-7 so it makes little sense to buy one of those to partner it with an amp like the Burson. However if you plan on going balanced down the road then the RE/NFB a-gd dacs are a terrific value and unbeatable in terms of SQ (IMO) for the price asked.
 
I'm still up in the air as to DAC choices.  Balanced or single ended?  Currently the HD-650's are wired single ended.  Do I go DAC19DSP, NFB-1, NFB-7, REF-1 or REF-7?  Choices.
 

 
You certainly have clued into the trend around here rather quickly.
 
Thanks!.......I think.  The noise level around here can become tedious.  There are so many possible ways one can go with your above.
 

 
Are you the kind of guy that wants to make a number of small purchases (working his way up the tree) or do you want to make one giant leap and go straight for the top ?
 
I'm the kind of guy who wants to do his research and then jump right to the top of any tree I can afford to climb.  After which, because of all the research, it's on to the next idea because I no longer have to worry about the last purchase.
 
The DAC19DSP would be a good match with the Burson I'm willing to bet. A better combo would the C2/DAC19DSP. The C2 is the replacement for the C-2C.
 
I think the DAC19DSP is an excellent recommendation for the HA-160.  But then again, I'm partial to the other possibilities also.
 
The latter has advantages for us old farts who know what they want...while the former has a pleasant learning curve that makes one appreciate the huge leap between a SC and cheap headphones to a separates system on the edge of TOTL SOTA...the vast gulf in performance is truly mind boggling once you've sampled the goods in person. I'm also getting a little long in the tooth FWIW and have been at this game for 4 decades now....love music, just not 8 track tapes (or the crappy players).
 
"TOTL SOTA"
 

 
Been doing this a bit less, twenty years.  My experience has been in speaker systems as opposed to computers and headphones.  As to the age thing, I'm at the point where I don't want to do business with anybody under the age of sixty-five.
 
Peete.
 
PS: I have a decent SC (the Auzen Prelude) that acts as a transport to my DAC and outboard amp. The Auzen used as a DAC is truly awful compared to the current DAC I'm using (which is nothing too special). I'm talking about the casual music system here...the ref system is strictly used with speakers as I much prefer that to headphones (although I do like what cans can do that speakers can't).
 
The "reference" system is on the shelf of our retirement home.  My wife retired six weeks ago and I have six more weeks until I can consider retiring.  Getting long of tooth has it's advantages.
 
Thanks for the excellent interaction.

 

[beeman458]

replytoken wrote:
 
...I would encourage you to give a bit less consideration to the price:quality relationship and a bit more to what synergizes best with your system.
 
I don't feel I have the ability to bring gear home and see how it marries up with my system as there's no stores to speak of in close proximity to our location.  Excellent piece of advice that seems in of itself to open up a whole new can of worms; sonic gear matching.
 
But as there are so many variables in audio, I personally believe that unless you audition equipment in your own system in your own home, you are in a "crap shoot".
 
And I was doing so good as I was "this close" to the door.
 

 
Personally, I don't think, from what I've read, the HA-160 headphone amp is off the mark in regard to my DAC choices but as you suggest, short of giving them a trial, there's no way to really know.  Dang!  In my case, I'll have to do my research, pull the trigger, not look back and go for it.  Still trying to get a better understanding of quality and price points as right now, as you suggest, I'm in a crap shoot in regard to synergism of parts.  FWIW, I do have faith that what ever choice I make, because of the amount of research that I do before purchase, what ever does come in the door, is going sound excellent.
 
Out of curiosity, how bad can a high end DAC make a system sound, assuming a decent "Redbook" recording?
 
???
 
Ken, thanks for the excellent input.
 
Thomas