[Epoch]

Well, if you are waiting for some more information, the Reference 7 loaner program should start seeing results in the next couple of weeks as the DAC was already shipped by Audio-GD.  So if you are looking for more feedback and input on the higher end models, that should be forthcoming.
 
Disclosure/setup
 
1) I use a high end power supply in my computer that costs almost as much as the Essence STX because it provides cleaner power than almost every other power supply on the market so maybe my performance is slightly better than normal
2) I did some A/B testing just to make sure nothing was broken and to see if I could hear any major changes after letting both the amp and the DAC warm up for about an hour and a half to get up to normal operating temperature.
3) RCA interconnects are used for the Essence STX and ACSS for the DAC.  I am testing my gear, not some theoretical setup that uses Audio-GD ACSS gear but only uses RCA interconnects.
4) I am using my HD650s for this, as it is what I use 99% of the time I use headphones.
5) The DAC has been used for about a dozen hours before writing any of this.
 
As for the DAC19DSP vs the Essence STX, the difference to me isn't large in any one area.  As always though, large is not a standardized measure, so good luck with relating it to your personal unit of large.
 
I didn't expect huge differences, its just minor details that seem to have changed.  Basically, things are a little more detailed as compared to before, its nuances that are improved, the little things.  The soundstage expands a bit further outside of the head, and sounds that are centered don't quite sound the same as before.  They were a little more of a blob in the center of the head before, now it sounds a little more spacious.  To clarify that last point is somewhat difficult to articulate, its a change from being slightly snug to properly adjusted.  With the larger soundstage, sounds just fit into position better, instead of being nudged into the soundstage to fit, they are just there.  That could be the DAC and the minor details it brings out, or it could also be related to having a dual mono design.
The best way that I can think of putting it is that you have a nice clean metal surface, but along an edge there is a slight burr.  You don't notice it until you run your hand along it, but its there.  The DAC smooths that burr, same edge, just a little better for finish.  That is what I am getting after about a dozen hours of use, same sound, nicer finish/detailing.  I can't think of an audible issue that is there that didn't exist before, its getting more of what you already have.
 
I will probably notice more later, and would be better able to notice differences after using the DAC for a few weeks, as I have always found that it is easier to know what you are missing by getting used to it being there.
 
In reference to one of your earlier comments about sound signature and EQ, these differences aren't something that I think EQ can do.
 
Somebody else may hear something else, but that is what I get from my purchase.  Your results may vary, your equipment does vary, and your goals may vary, so I can only speak for myself.  As to the value of these minor details, that is also a personal preference, so I sadly agree with earlier comments that you need to hear it and try it to know if you will like it.  As long as you have reasonable expectations though you shouldn't be disappointed.
 
In all fairness, its not like the Essence STX is a poor performer, it just doesn't quite compete with the DAC19DSP.  For what it is and what it costs, it does an excellent job.
 
I don't have experience with higher end gear, so somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but I would imagine that the purpose of a higher end DAC is to resolve and accurately present ever smaller details and nuances.  That would lead to the assumption that the differences to get smaller, as that is the goal.  That isn't to say that the differences become more inaudible, as I can't attest to that, more a suggestion that it becomes more of a complete presentation of what was recorded.
 
Since you are looking for something much more expensive and higher end than what I am using though for a DAC as per your budget, wait a little while before you make a decision.  There should be a lot more exposure of the Reference 7 due to it making the rounds to some members here for review, so if I were you I would wait to see some results from that.

 

[replytoken]

Hi Thomas,
 
I can completely sympathize with feeling like I am "this close" to the door.  And with adding the consideration of a new DAC in addition to a replacement preamplifier, I am beginning to wonder if that door is not really an exit, but rather an entrance to another room filled with more choices. 

  
 
Regarding how "bad" could a higher priced piece of gear that we are considering sound, I think that you partially answered your own question.  Let me "interpret" and elaborate on your statement with some of my own experiences.  We do our research here and on the rest of the web, we eliminate what we believe to be the obvious "clunkers", and then we focus our energy on what we believe to be our best options.  Now, hopefully we have eliminated any truly awful options, especially at the top end of our budgets.  And, possibly, we start to imagine what life would be like with our choices.  Next we begin to invest our emotional energy in this investment, for better and for worse.  And, if we cannot audition equipment, we are "rolling the dice" in trying to get a satisfying outcome.  And, we will do our best to convince ourselves it really is a good outcome, short of it being truly awful.  Or, in your own words, "not look back and go for it."
 
So, how bad could it really sound?  I will use my tube preamplifier auditions as an example (and there were five that I tried, not four as I previously stated).  My wife and I could have easily lived with three of the units.  They sounded a bit different, but none offended our ears.  Those three included the second least expensive, a mid-priced unit, and the most expensive, with the second least expensive being our favorite.  As for the other two, I believe that we could have learned to live with the other mid-priced model despite it having a limited sound stage and a lot of top end in our system.  I so wanted to like this unit, but my ears told me otherwise.  Regarding the least expensive unit, despite its following and reputation on the web, the loaner we had almost had my wife and I at each others throats after a weekend of listening.  While some would say that it was very neutral and had an extended top end, we both thought it was glassy and shrill in our system.  I really wanted to like this unit as well, but it was the exception to our cardinal rule.  Any gear that plays in our house has to not cause headaches after extended listening.  If it needs to roll off the top end a wee bit to accomplish that task, then so be it.
 
It was great that we could easily hear the differences of each piece of gear.  Years ago, I tried out an external DAC thinking that I could better my CDP's internal DACs.  It was a very frustrating experience because I was not able to tell the two apart.  This could have been for a number of reasons, but since I was not going to reconsider my entire system, the point was moot to me - the "new guy" didn't cut it in the audition with the band.
 
I was recently advised that the more I spent on equipment, the more I might regret my purchase if I was unhappy.  While the converse of this may also be true, it was good advice when I felt like I was "rolling the dice".  I am now considering a more affordable DAC since I am not certain how much use it will get hooked up to my laptop.  I do not like to buy twice, but the cost of an affordable DAC is not a big outlay of cash.
 
I think that you have the right mindset to make this work out for you.  And, if you are really considering a modified Oppo, you mihgt want to consider with ModWright Instruments.  They have modified Oppo players, and I had a good e-mail exchange with the owner.  He seems very customer focused.
 
Good luck,
 
--Ken

 

[beeman458]

Epoch, first things first, thank-you for your efforts to articulate your experience with the DAC19DSP.  I was fully in tune with your thoughtfully articulated effort.
 
"Yeah, baby, now that's what I'm talking about!"
 

 
Well, if you are waiting for some more information, the Reference 7 loaner program should start seeing results in the next couple of weeks as the DAC was already shipped by Audio-GD.  So if you are looking for more feedback and input on the higher end models, that should be forthcoming.
 
I'll look forward to these impending reports.
 
Disclosure/setup
 
Pretty much, your computer setup is identical to the one I've been using.  I upgraded the power supply to a modular power supply unit.  If I had it to do over again, this is the unit I would install.  By installing the upgraded power supply unit I got rid of the power supply ponytail coming out of the back of the power supply.  Also, each power cable was individually wrapped which helps minimize computer case related EMI/RFI interference all these random power cables can cause.  Last I checked, this is suppose to be a good thing.
 
As for the DAC19DSP vs the Essence STX, the difference to me isn't large in any one area.  As always though, large is not a standardized measure, so good luck with relating it to your personal unit of large.
 
Myself?  I have no trouble "accurately" relating to terms used in this manner.  Subjecttive at best?  Yes.  But if a person has both common sense and the experience to base this common sense on, use of the language such as your above to covey and understand ideas in your above terms, isn't a problem.
 
I didn't expect huge differences, its just minor details that seem to have changed.  Basically, things are a little more detailed as compared to before, its nuances that are improved, the little things.  The soundstage expands a bit further outside of the head, and sounds that are centered don't quite sound the same as before.  They were a little more of a blob in the center of the head before, now it sounds a little more spacious.  To clarify that last point is somewhat difficult to articulate, its a change from being slightly snug to properly adjusted.
 
I'm with you so far.
 
With the larger soundstage, sounds just fit into position better, instead of being nudged into the soundstage to fit, they are just there.  That could be the DAC and the minor details it brings out, or it could also be related to having a dual mono design.
 
"...dual mono design."
 
???

The best way that I can think of putting it is that you have a nice clean metal surface, but along an edge there is a slight burr.  You don't notice it until you run your hand along it, but its there.  The DAC smooths that burr, same edge, just a little better for finish.  That is what I am getting after about a dozen hours of use, same sound, nicer finish/detailing.  I can't think of an audible issue that is there that didn't exist before, its getting more of what you already have.
 
I follow in that to me, what you write of is taking the edge off the edges of the music (harshness) and a further polishing (smoothing or a sweetening) of an already acceptable finish.  Which makes it that much better.
 
I will probably notice more later, and would be better able to notice differences after using the DAC for a few weeks, as I have always found that it is easier to know what you are missing by getting used to it being there.
 
FWIW, it takes some two hundred hours to break gear in and in doing so, the sound stage opens up further, highs smooth out and bass tightens up.  Much like what you write of in your above.
 
In reference to one of your earlier comments about sound signature and EQ, these differences aren't something that I think EQ can do.
 
Not meaning to argue your above as partly, I'm agreeing with your above in a backhanded way.  I find that there's a little bit of both as EQ's highs and lows, can effectively tighten up bass and help smooth out treble but won't expand the sound stage or give the piece more authority or presents.  And EQ'g highs will have only so much affect on harshness due to clipping.
 
Somebody else may hear something else, but that is what I get from my purchase.  Your results may vary, your equipment does vary, and your goals may vary, so I can only speak for myself.  As to the value of these minor details, that is also a personal preference, so I sadly agree with earlier comments that you need to hear it and try it to know if you will like it.  As long as you have reasonable expectations though you shouldn't be disappointed.
 
That's the rub, auditioning the equipment, isn't a possibility at this time, so I have to research, read reviews, buy once and be happy.
 
In all fairness, its not like the Essence STX is a poor performer, it just doesn't quite compete with the DAC19DSP.  For what it is and what it costs, it does an excellent job.
 
Your writing efforts are most helpful for the insight they show.
 
I don't have experience with higher end gear, so somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but I would imagine that the purpose of a higher end DAC is to resolve and accurately present ever smaller details and nuances.  That would lead to the assumption that the differences to get smaller, as that is the goal.  That isn't to say that the differences become more inaudible, as I can't attest to that, more a suggestion that it becomes more of a complete presentation of what was recorded.
 
That's the world of the esoteric that I write of.  At a certain point, one jumps over the edge of reality and into the world of esoteric.  I went through this form of audio nervosa back in the 90's with home living room gear.  I came to the conclusion there's two basic listening styles.  There's the listening style of the critic, critical listening; esoteric.  And then there's the listening world of the real such as having a second glass of wine while playing Yahtzee with a loved one on the carpeted floor, doing your best to keep accurate score, of course.  The solution to the question, "Esoteric Vs Reality?", I came up with the formula of go two notches above casual listening while having a second glass of wine and you'll be good.
 
Since you are looking for something much more expensive and higher end than what I am using though for a DAC as per your budget, wait a little while before you make a decision.  There should be a lot more exposure of the Reference 7 due to it making the rounds to some members here for review, so if I were you I would wait to see some results from that.
 
Some of what I have written has created confusion as shown in your above comment.  I write that I have a fifteen hundred dollar budget but that doesn't mean I'm hell bent on spending fifteen hundred dollars.  If the answer comes in the form of a six or eight hundred dollar unit, I'm going be all over that bad boy.  Here's one unit being looked at and it's approximately half the fifteen hundred dollar budget and it's not a discrete Audio-gd DAC, either.  The point, until I buy, I'm keeping my options open.
 
Thanks again for you most thoughtful effort to lend clarity to this issue.
 

 

[beeman458]

replytoken, thanks for your thoughtful effort.  In your above description, to me, you have hit the emotional issue square on the head as music is as much, if not more, about the emotions as opposed to the mechanical issues of circuit design.  A piece of gear can have the best specs in the world but if it's not amore, then like the song, it's not a big pizza pie.
 
For me, it's very important to get the gear out of the way so the music can come through.  And in the same vein, I don't want to get hung up in the world of the esoteric, eternally stuck in critical listening mode (gearhead) while on this sojourn.  In the end, as you so eloquently stated, it's about the emotional impact of the music.  What it's not about is the gear.  Which brings us to the point of the thread; What's what with the what?"
 
So many choices, so little time, money or will to try all the possibilities.
 
So far, what I've gotten out of this thread, among many other points of course, is that a piece of gear such as the Audio-gd DAC19DSP hits the entry level rung smartly and from there, it's off to the races as one tries to work through the maze of possibilities being presented to us mere mortals as we struggle to reach for the sounds of the music gods with our limiting budgets.
 
Ken, thanks again for what I consider to be your very successful efforts at articulating the emotional aspect of this quest.

 

[krmathis]

I guess...
When the sound and build quality make you pleased. No desire for anything of higher quality
 
and/or
 
Your wallet can not take any more damage

 

[replytoken]

You are quite welcome, Thomas.

 
I think that you summed it up best for a lot of us.  We appreciate our gear, but we really love our music.  I stayed away from this place for quite some time when I made peace with my equipment a few years ago.  I am now changing things around, and need some advice on gear, but I really look forward to getting back to my music, and relying on my equipment to fade back into the background.  I can appreciate those who are into their gear (as well asa their music), and esoteric is probably as good a term as any to describe any person's extreme passion, but that is not quite who I am, despite what my wife sometimes thinks.  I hope all of your gear matches up well when all is said and done.  Synergy can be very elusive, and should be treasured and appreciated when bestowed upon your equipment.
 
Enjoy,
 
--Ken

 

[plonter]

I have a question regarding cirrus logic's dac chips.  how do they compare against other dac chips manufacturers?  are they consideres any good in the audiophile world..or low quality?

 

[Albedo]

Take CS4398 and presentation..
 
Sexy:
http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/793/electrocompaniet-ecc1-cd-player
 
or "oh! I'm so bored with you":
http://diykits.com.hk/Zhaolu%20D2.5.htm
 
".. and your ZapFilter and that *eeh* kind'a stuff".

 

[replytoken]

Quote:

I have a question regarding cirrus logic's dac chips.  how do they compare against other dac chips manufacturers?  are they consideres any good in the audiophile world..or low quality?

My short answer would be, "it depends."  Almost all chip manufacturers have some winners, some losers, and a whole bunch in between.  Personally, I am less concerned about the specific DAC chip than I am about the overall design of a piece of equipment.  To me, DAC chips are like vacuum tubes.  The 6SN7, for example, is a great tube, but only if used in a properly designed piece of equipment.  However, I would have an interest in a specific DAC chip if a manufactuer that I respect changes or updates their product with a different model.  In short, think of the DAC as "icing on the cake".
 
--Ken
 

 

[plonter]

Quote:

My short answer would be, "it depends."  Almost all chip manufacturers have some winners, some losers, and a whole bunch in between.  Personally, I am less concerned about the specific DAC chip than I am about the overall design of a piece of equipment.  To me, DAC chips are like vacuum tubes.  The 6SN7, for example, is a great tube, but only if used in a properly designed piece of equipment.  However, I would have an interest in a specific DAC chip if a manufactuer that I respect changes or updates their product with a different model.  In short, think of the DAC as "icing on the cake".
 
--Ken
 

ok..thanks for the comments.

 

[beeman458]

replytoken wrote:
 
Synergy can be very elusive, and should be treasured and appreciated when bestowed upon your equipment.
 
That's a short coming of mine.  I never did learn about "synergy."  Why?  I always just bought the best parts I could afford, wired them all together with higher end speaker cables and innerconnects, flipped the on switch and enjoyed.  Good sound always came out of the speakers when I did things in this fashion.  The point, since I obviously don't know about headphone gear and synergy, other than the weakest link in the chain, or like kind and quality, what do you suggest?
 
In short, think of the DAC as "icing on the cake".
 
Oh great, not only do I have to worry about holes in my wallet......but now I have to worry about cavities.
 

 

 

[Albedo]

Yep, yep, your CS4398 are pretty up to date so why not just replace the stock opamps with Dexa discrete opamps on your SC and use some ERS cloth?
 
No soldering required, by the way.. here's some info. on the cloth:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/ers_cloth_e.html
 
Edit: Both the opamps and the cloth can be used later on, those Dexa's are IMO the best designed I've seen on the net so far.

 

[replytoken]

Quote:

replytoken wrote:
 
Synergy can be very elusive, and should be treasured and appreciated when bestowed upon your equipment.
 
That's a short coming of mine.  I never did learn about "synergy."  Why?  I always just bought the best parts I could afford, wired them all together with higher end speaker cables and innerconnects, flipped the on switch and enjoyed.  Good sound always came out of the speakers when I did things in this fashion.  The point, since I obviously don't know about headphone gear and synergy, other than the weakest link in the chain, or like kind and quality, what do you suggest?
 
In short, think of the DAC as "icing on the cake".
 
Oh great, not only do I have to worry about holes in my wallet......but now I have to worry about cavities.
 

 

First, worry about your wallet.  If you just ignore your teeth, they will eventually go away!

 
Regarding synergy, I look at it in two parts.  The first part, which is sometimes the hardest, is the technical.  Some pieces of equipment just are not meant to be hooked up to one another.  A good example of this is matching tube preamplifiers with solid state amplifiers.  Impedances, among other things, have to be correct or you will have a bloody mess on your hands.  Some audio gear is literally plug-and-play, and some needs to be carefully matched.  Usually we find out the hard way, after we have purchased a finicky piece of equipment that "does not play well with others".
 
The second part is how it sounds to you.  The equipment may be plug-and-play, but how does it sound to you?  Do you like your music __________ (fill in whatever adjective(s) you wish)?  Does the gear sound ____________?  My tube preamp and solid sate amp are a prickly pair, but they do sound better to me than when I use the on-board pre-amp of the amp (which is actually an integrated amp that can be uncoupled).  As I mentioned previously, other tube preamps were all over the amp, but only one was truly a bad sonic combination to my ears.  Speakers are the same way, and so are headphones.  My Sen HD-600's are like big, warm pillows on my head.  I ove the sound they produce.  My Ety ER-4's are like "microscopes for my ears".  They pick up every little sound and are very clinical.  They are fine for travel and casual use, but they are not as enjoyable as my Senns.  If I was to purchase an amp or source jsut for the Etys, I would want something that people define as "warm", otherwise I would probably not enjoy listening to them.
 
I would say that the Weakest Link theory is somewhat akin to synergy.  To make yourself more aware of it, just beg, borrow or steal equipment that you can substitute into your audio chain.  Why not try to use your DVD player as a CD player?  You might be surprised, but even if your not, you are exposing yourself to what changes in your system sound like.  I have several portable Panasonic CDP's that I keep for casual use.  You would be surprised at how they sound in a home system.  I am not rushing out to replace my existing CDP, but it is good training to hear what different equipment sounds like in a system, for better or for worse.  Just remember, in the end, trust your ears!  You know what your favorite music should sound like.
 
--Ken
 

 

 

[Epoch]

I assume that you were confused about me mentioning dual mono in my post.  Dual mono design means independent power supplies for each channel.  Its like having two monaural stages/components in the same chassis.  The basic premise is to reduce crosstalk.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Well there are those of us (quite a few I would dare to say) that straddle the line between esoteric (serious listening) and casual ( background listening). There is no way to say for sure which is more pleasurable..I happen to enjoy both for what they are but I usually end up listening seriously only because I get pulled into it so deeply (by the sheer beauty of the music being played) which in turn is reflected directly by the ability of the system to deliver chills and goosebumps. It's like a never ending circle, the more you enjoy something the further into it you are pulled the more attention is paid refining the gear  that delivers the experience....it's one of the few passions in life that never gets old (IMO at least).
 
Having a great system (which means taking into account all relevant aspects, synergy, relative performance, etc) has an effect on folks that tends to turn them into serious listeners, not because they like the looks of the gear (although decent looking stuff is an attraction all in itself that holds more sway than it should, IMO at least) but rather it gives one the core immediate pleasure that great music being played back in a great system can bring.
 
Of all the audio folks I've met over the years very few if any (that I recall now that I really think about it) are gear heads only, they are all music lovers first and foremost. There is a subset of the musical experience which I define by 2 classifications, those that create the music we listen to and those that listen to it. I've also found that very few musicians turn out to be audiophiles in the classical sense. It's odd but most of the musicians I know could care less about the SQ of a system (there are exceptions) as long as it does a good job (define.. good job....

) whereas the dedicated listener is all about trying to recreate the most realistic facsimile of the event possible. I realize I'm generalizing when describing such a wide swath of folks ..the bottom line remains the end result for the vast majority of us, for the musician it's the structure of the work (the composition, the lyrics, melody,phrasing) while the audiophile (and the casual listener) tries to enjoy that completed structure (for the same reasons oddly enough) as best they can as it relates to them.
 
2 cents FWIW.
 
Peete.