[replytoken]

Quote:

...there are no bad reviews. A reviewer is not going to come out and say point blank that a certain product sounds horrible. It would be bad publicity for the manufacturer. So rather than say a certain product sounds horrible, a reviewer will go about discretely naming negative aspects of said product throughout the review. Or in some reviews, there will be no negative aspects, but a rather lack of overall enthusiasm.

From my experience reading through more than my fair share of reviews, I say, well stated!
 
--Ken
 

 

[replytoken]

Congratulations on your decision, Thomas! 

  I hope your new purchase will play well in your system.  Given your choice, I was wondering if you had considered the Music Hall 25.3 DAC in your search process?  It was one that I had initially considered, and given how you have described your music and listening preferences, I thought it might have been of interest to you.  BTW, I decided to go budget and buy a NuForce uDAC-2.  Hopefully it will meet my current needs, and it will buy me some time before I decide whether to spend some additional funds on a DAC.
 
Happy listening,
 
--Ken

 

[beeman458]

replytoken wrote:
Congratulations on your decision, Thomas! 

  I hope your new purchase will play well in your system.
 
Thanks!

 
Given your choice, I was wondering if you had considered the Music Hall 25.3 DAC in your search process?
 
No I hadn't.  Why?  I didn't know of the Music Hall 25.3 DAC until you mentioned it here.  For purposely unstated reasons, I gave up on Audio-gd.  Because of this, I decided to continue checking out the Buy/Sell forum and the Stello DA100 Signature came up for sale.  My opinion, for the most part, design nuances aside, from what I've gleaned, at any equal price point, DAC's are more neutral than active.  So I read reviews on the Stello DA100 Signature.  Nothing glaring jumped off the reviewer's pages and nothing in the reviewer's nuances set off my warning bells.  It looked good on paper, looked good as a picture on a table, so at the price of used, I took a flyer.
 

 
It was one that I had initially considered, and given how you have described your music and listening preferences, I thought it might have been of interest to you.  BTW, I decided to go budget and buy a NuForce uDAC-2.  Hopefully it will meet my current needs, and it will buy me some time before I decide whether to spend some additional funds on a DAC.
 
I'm sorry that I didn't read up on the Music Hall 25.3 DAC you mentioned.  There are so many choices.  NuForce is well respected so I'm sure it will do what you're wanting.  Me?  I'm pretty much clueless so all I can do in encourage out of ignorance.
 

 
I did a quick check on the Music Hall 25.3, and for the price difference, if you haven't already purchased the NuForce, I'd encourage you to step up to the Music Hall 25.3 for added connects and features over the less expensive NuForce unit.  A suggestion, check out the Buy/Sell forum as there are deals (twenty to fifty percent off) to be had from folks going through a round of upgraditis.
 
Happy listening,
 
Thanks!  Looking forward to hearing the differences and here's to there being a positive outcome on both our parts.

 
An aside, talking to my wife, I had an interesting thought.  Reviewers will write about how a hundred dollar DAC is equal to three hundred dollar DAC's.  I carried this forward to, a study should be done following the compared DAC's.  If a reviewer names a DAC the lesser value DAC is equal or better than, then the more expensive DAC should be vetted.  And any DAC the three hundred dollar DAC is listed as being better than, should be vetted to see what more expensive DAC it is better than.  By comparison, the extension of the idea is, that in the end, if all is or were true, then the hundred dollar DAC, originally reviewed, would be better than the most expensive DAC reviewed when the chain of comparisons finally ends.
 
Hmmmmmmmm!
 
Yes I know, on it's face it's ridiculous but to those who will, before discounting the above thought, think about the validity of the logic.  Sans any listening standards, isn't this what happens when the voice of subjectivity takes over the voice of reason?  As the above harkens back to the OP title:
 
"DAC's. When is good enough, good enough?"
 

 
(Yes, I know, cable debate.)

 

[realmassy]

Quote:

Sooooooo, from the Buy/Sell forum I closed a deal on an April Music Stello DA100 Signature DAC.  New, it costs more than the NFB-1 and used, about four or five months old, less than a new NFB-1.  The unit should be installed, up and running by late next week.

Congrats mate!
The Stello has been on my short list for a long time, though I never heard it.
Please post your impressions as soon as you get the dac.

 

[Dynobot]

Sure, but the idea is not practical. 
 
I am sure than when Dacs are compared the relative value of the Dac as well as its appearance comes into play [in the real world].  Just like everything else, appearance comes into play whether we want to admit it or not.  And so does cost, were as a high priced Dac will automatically have an edge over a less expensive Dac just because of expectations.  This same expectation is what fuels the placebo affect.  Many people feel that the placebo affect is not valid or voids impressions as being false.  But on the contrary, if the affect is consistently noticed then it is just as valid as any other.  It takes a lot of practice to be totally unbiased and turn subjective impressions into objective ones.  In the mean time, just take what people write as opinions that may or may not fit in with general perceptions.  After reading enough reviews you should be able to pick apart the fact from fiction.
 
Then there comes true sonic attributes.  Again it takes some practice to be able to discern all the different aspects of music reproduction.  First and foremost in my opinion the reviewer should listen to live music as least some of the time, in order to really have an understanding what a real instrument sounds like.  Secondly, the reviewer needs to dismiss any biases towards any brand, related to value or cost, and appearance.  Third, starting from top to bottom in the octaves the reviewer needs to be able to pick apart each instrument and vocal arrangement and judge each one separately relative to what a real voice or instrument sounds like.  Then judge whether or not everything is being portrayed as it should in the sound stage.  If all goes well, one Dac, Cord, Speaker, etc. will win out over the other....as to why, well thats a whole different matter.  Why could be due to overall system synergy, mood of the listener, quality of the source material in relation to gear [bad recording may actually sound better on lesser gear], then there is the over all design philosophy of the component.  Overall synergy trumps everything in my opinion, this is what makes a lesser component shine over a better one in many cases.  Otherwise technically speaking you should just be able to choose superior components based on design and parts and have a top notch system, which you can most of the time, but occasionally a mis-matched system with excellent synergy wins.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Something else I found interesting during this threads tenor, it seems that all the "professional" reviews I read have a certain boiler plate similarity in that I never read a bad review and units being reviewed, seemed to a one, to be equal to or better than much more expensive DACs; all giant killers.  Now how can that be unless there's subterfuge or skulduggery going on, on the part of somebody?
 

I think that people forget the fact that it takes an awefully long time to write a review. If the product is really bad, there is no motivation to spend a lot of time just to say it "sucks".

There is another point that people miss: the performance of many DACs can be very dependant on the quality of the transport and the power filtration. When used in an "ideal" environment, most decently built DACs will fall somewhere in between the good and exceptional. That is why it is important for the reader to scan any review for the particular strengths of the DAC.
 
Also, the reviewer should be as objective as possible and let the reader draw his own conclusion. Depending on personal preferences and someone's set-up, the word "warmth" could be perceived as either positive or negative. If someone feels that his system is cold and lifeless, he might be tempted by a "warm" sounding DAC. If their system is neutral and natural sonding, the word "warmth" could be perceived as potentially bringing "bloat" or too much "warmth" in a system. The example I provided is just a simplistic one to illustrate why remaining objective is important (please don't quote me on it).
 
Regarding the "giant killer", there are 2 factors that could make a DAC for somebody. A subjective factor which depend on personal musical preferences and a objective factor which depend on the "objective" (and repeatable) performance of a given DAC. I believe that a "giant killer" shouldn't be deduced from a review but from studying the internals of a given DAC. When you compare the internals of (good) chinese made DACs with many western brands, there is huge gap in the quality of components being used. I personally would never buy a $1000 that uses less than $100 worth of components even if the reviewer tells me it is better than $5000 DAC. If that is the case, it is just an illustration that the $1000 is overpriced and that the $5000 is a rip-off (or that the reviewer is wrong in his assessment).
When looking at the current production of DACs, there are a lot of overpriced DACs which make statement like "this DAC perform like DACs costing 3 times more" rather easy, especially if the reviewer doesn't give specific references.
 
Note1: all the above is intended for people who have noticed differences between DACs. For those who think all DACs sound the same, they should just dicard what I wrote above ... since everything is supposed to sound the same anyway.
Note2: the above also assumes that the reviewer is giving an honest opinion about the product under review. Obviously, in some cases there might biases that skew the outcome of the review.

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

 I personally would never buy a $1000 that uses less than $100 worth of components even if the reviewer tells me it is better than $5000 DAC. If that is the case, it is just an illustration that the $1000 is overpriced and that the $5000 is a rip-off (or that the reviewer is wrong in his assessment).

You mean like this .... This is what $800 bucks gets you Apogee Mini Dac
 
 

 
Lavry DA10 $1,100 bucks
 

 

[beeman458]

Dynobot wrote:
 
Sure, but the idea is not practical. 
 
I am sure than when Dacs are compared the relative value of the Dac as well as its appearance comes into play [in the real world].  Just like everything else, appearance comes into play whether we want to admit it or not.  And so does cost, were as a high priced Dac will automatically have an edge over a less expensive Dac just because of expectations.  This same expectation is what fuels the placebo affect.  Many people feel that the placebo affect is not valid or voids impressions as being false.  But on the contrary, if the affect is consistently noticed then it is just as valid as any other.  It takes a lot of practice to be totally unbiased and turn subjective impressions into objective ones.  In the mean time, just take what people write as opinions that may or may not fit in with general perceptions.  After reading enough reviews you should be able to pick apart the fact from fiction.
 
From my late youthful teenage philosophical "skoolin" and over the past thirty or forty years, having expanded greatly on this "skoolin," I've had the practice of what you write.  You also write of fact or fiction, and the rub to this thought, many reviewers make opinionated statements as if they're verified facts as opposed to subjective personal opinion that can vary with the mood or emotion of the day's listening experience.  Hence the need for meta-analysis. 
 
Then there comes true sonic attributes.  Again it takes some practice to be able to discern all the different aspects of music reproduction.  First and foremost in my opinion the reviewer should listen to live music as least some of the time, in order to really have an understanding what a real instrument sounds like.
 
Working with you, sometimes you'll see me just standing there, oblivious to my surroundings as I'm inside my brain, checking out the sound waves surrounding me.  I stand in one place, slowly revolving in a totally unsophisticated pirouette listening to individual sounds being presented in the symphony of sound waves assailing my ear drums.  And yes, no it's not live music.
 

 
Secondly, the reviewer needs to dismiss any biases towards any brand, related to value or cost, and appearance.  Third, starting from top to bottom in the octaves the reviewer needs to be able to pick apart each instrument and vocal arrangement and judge each one separately relative to what a real voice or instrument sounds like.  Then judge whether or not everything is being portrayed as it should in the sound stage.  If all goes well, one Dac, Cord, Speaker, etc. will win out over the other....as to why, well thats a whole different matter.  Why could be due to overall system synergy, mood of the listener, quality of the source material in relation to gear [bad recording may actually sound better on lesser gear], then there is the over all design philosophy of the component.  Overall synergy trumps everything in my opinion, this is what makes a lesser component shine over a better one in many cases.  Otherwise technically speaking you should just be able to choose superior components based on design and parts and have a top notch system, which you can most of the time, but occasionally a mis-matched system with excellent synergy wins.
 
Agreeing with you, hence the need for a standard.  Sans a standard, then reviews are all over the map.  And by a standard, that means exactly that, a defined, everybody must follow this testing protocol, reference test equipment, report based, standard.  Yeah, I know, not very practical or sexy.
 
You mean like this .... This is what $800 bucks gets you Apogee Mini Dac
 


Wow!
 
The Stello DA100 Signature, at $985.00, is more discrete in it's design.  And this, with it's own custom toroidal transformer.  Not as sweet as Audio-gd but still, it's use of discrete parts is clean and well laid out.
 

 

[phill1978]

"Many people feel that the placebo affect is not valid or voids impressions as being false.  But on the contrary, if the affect is consistently noticed then it is just as valid as any other"
 
THIS ^. 100%
 
 
I have a now aging but jewel like musical fidelity XA-2. Ive always loved its looks and its still pristine ive never tired of it asthetically in a decade and its materials and tactility give the impression of a well oiled piece of equipment.. this can and does and has fed my belife that it sounds precise and clean.. when in actual fact there isnt much base weight and its tonally very bright (not splashy or treble enhanced just like having a spot light shine on the music)
 
my point is, if a piece of Tube kit Glows away in the night, in your music room / bedroom and produces a smooth liquid sound you also atribute the fact that the whole unit is glowing is part of this reason. its magic, theatre if you will. Like an everyday grimy city looks magical at night from a moutain view, it adds to the feeling and ambiance.
 
so, placebo can be attributed but in a very positive way.. it wont make something obviously poor at sound reproduction sound better but you will forgive it more. this is the exact reason i agree with the placebo statement AND the original post. DAC`s are just about the same and good enough now even on a pc motherboard (head amps are a different story still) as an expensive DAC but that external glowing tube dac has more magic and ownership effect. Why do you think high end stuff always looks amazing?
 
 
 
basically buy what makes you feel good if it makes financial sense or not. its your (short, lets face it people) life and your money

 

[KingStyles]

If we are showing off dac internals, here is mine. I wanted to keep the analog like sound of my isabellina hpa while adding more detail and resolution to the equation. This dac did the trick. This is where I drew the line as good enough and have no plans to upgrade it for while.

 

[Dynobot]

Wow, Sexy......whats her name?
 
 
Quote:

If we are showing off dac internals, here is mine. I wanted to keep the analog like sound of my isabellina hpa while adding more detail and resolution to the equation. This dac did the trick. This is where I drew the line as good enough and have no plans to upgrade it for while.

 

[KingStyles]

Ayon Skylla.
I have found that good enough is good enough when either your curiosity is satisfied or you get the piece of equipment that has all the traits that you are looking for. That may cost $100 or $10000.

 

[phill1978]

Quote:

Ayon Skylla.
I have found that good enough is good enough when either your curiosity is satisfied or you get the piece of equipment that has all the traits that you are looking for. That may cost $100 or $10000.

agreed and one of those is definatley the way it looks and feels to own

 

 

[Dynobot]

Quote:

Ayon Skylla.
I have found that good enough is good enough when either your curiosity is satisfied or you get the piece of equipment that has all the traits that you are looking for. That may cost $100 or $10000.

Quote:

agreed and one of those is definatley the way it looks and feels to own

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Yep Pride-of-Ownership goes a long way...
 
 
I mean I know this sounds good and I never even heard it
 

 

[beeman458]

phill1978 wrote:
 
so, placebo can be attributed but in a very positive way.. it wont make something obviously poor at sound reproduction sound better but you will forgive it more.
 
Kinda like how the Hollywood druggie crowd is being given a pass by the courts when compared to the local banger on the street.
 
What'd that one judge say when it came sentencing time; "You're too pretty to do jail time.", even though you molested your student.
 
If you ugly, then you gotta do the time, cause it's da law.
 
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
 

 
KingStyles wrote:
 
If we are showing off dac internals, here is mine.
 
Ooooh, DAC porn.  Porn aside, the Ayon Skyalla is, a whole bunch more than my budget will allow.  That and I really don't like tubes because tubes require feeding and maintenance; complications.
 
I wanted to keep the analog like sound of my isabellina hpa while adding more detail and resolution to the equation. This dac did the trick. This is where I drew the line as good enough and have no plans to upgrade it for while.
 
You're above comment, unknowingly, highlights my plight.  I can't draw a line as I don't know where the line is.  Hence the point of the thread.  When it's comes to home electronics, I've always done it along the lines of:
 
Research > price > reviews > readjust price > research/reviews > refine price > drool over what's available > research > price > grab the item in question and jump out of the plane without a parachute.  You know, kinda like Smeagol/Gollum falling into the lava while holding onto his "Precious."  I dress better but he had more hair.
 

 
So far, with few exceptions, this method has served me very successfully.
 
Dynobot wrote:
 
I mean I know this sounds good and I never even heard it
 
That's because it's a "McIntosh."