DAC's. When is good enough, good enough?
Sep 21, 2010 at 11:56 AM Post #121 of 158
LOL...well actually you are right, the average person would just plug something in, find it enjoyable or not and be done with it.
 
One of my customers has two baby grands in her living room.  Twenty plus grand wrapped up in those two beauties.  She records and plays back on a seventy dollar WalMart style cassette deck.
 
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Sep 21, 2010 at 11:58 AM Post #122 of 158
$70 WalMart Cassette Deck...?!?!?!?!
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Quote:
LOL...well actually you are right, the average person would just plug something in, find it enjoyable or not and be done with it.
 
One of my customers has two baby grands in her living room.  Twenty plus grand wrapped up in those two beauties.  She records and plays back on a seventy dollar WalMart style cassette deck.
 
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Sep 21, 2010 at 5:10 PM Post #124 of 158


Quote:
Don't worry about it, find your happy medium and enjoy....you might like tubes, perhaps the EE Sabre Dac???

 
At the end of the day, this is a nice hobby and the ultimate aim is enjoyment :)
BTW, the Eastern Electric is on my short list, but so far I'm very pleased with the cheap Valab Luxury: $260 shipped to UK!!
I'm using my Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu and MPD, with usb straight into the dac...and I like what I hear! And I have $800 to spend on music 
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Sep 21, 2010 at 6:03 PM Post #125 of 158
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Originally Posted by beeman458 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
For my purposes, pretty much, I've become turned off to the whole process as nothing should remain behind the curtains this long and by any means, considered well grounded in thought.  Come on, it's a stupid Digital-to-Analogue converter, not a rocket shot to Mars.  Manufactures are screwing with our heads to keep their products moving off the shelf as there's only so many ways to skin a deer and then you're making things up.  Me?  I'm now looking to the Buy/Sell forum as it seems more to be, find something with your personal feature set/price and EQ the rest.


I hate to say it, but audio playback is pretty complicated, and I have yet to find a full explanation of time domain effects on playback.  I have already posted some impressions on the difference between the Essence STX and an external DAC connected via SPDIF to that very same card.  You keep going back and forth with wanting a DAC, to not believing in differences between DACs and not wanting to try anything.
 
You have input on your very specific situation, going from an Essence STX to an external DAC.  You then posted that you were probably going to go with the NFB-1, which is higher end than what I posted about.  Now you state the transforming from a digital sample to analog audio is relatively simple, and that the makers of these products are lying to sell their products.  Are you implying that I am not hearing actual differences, just lies from the manufacturer?
 
If you don't want to purchase, just decide that you don't want to purchase, don't lump manufacturers together and state that they lie about their products just to sell them.
 
 
Sep 21, 2010 at 6:37 PM Post #126 of 158


Quote:
 
At the end of the day, this is a nice hobby and the ultimate aim is enjoyment :)
BTW, the Eastern Electric is on my short list, but so far I'm very pleased with the cheap Valab Luxury: $260 shipped to UK!!
I'm using my Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu and MPD, with usb straight into the dac...and I like what I hear! And I have $800 to spend on music 
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I understand completely.  In fact although under estimated by many MANY people the Valab Dac is indeed a Giant killer....at least in my book.  I have 3, one original un-touched, one reclock version which has been modded and one pre-reclock which had slight mods.  My first Dac was a Lavry DA10, a slightly  modded Valab made me sell the Lavry within 1 hour, literally on Audiogon for sale within one hour of listening.  Since then my slightly modded Valab has been the Benchmark of which many a Dac has failed to justify their worth.  Which is to say, you will need to spend upward of 1K+ to really beat it all around, dispite its shortcomings as a lowly inexpensive Dac.  Too bad so many Audiophile equate inexpensive with cheap, and automatically think cheap = no good sound.  Granted the Valab is an Ugly Duckling but it sure can sing!
 
My Giant Killer, Audio Quest King Cobra soldered to the board, Furutech AC inlet, and a few replaced caps.
 

 
Sep 21, 2010 at 6:45 PM Post #127 of 158
You keep going back and forth with wanting a DAC, to not believing in differences between DACs and not wanting to try anything
 
Since you believe your above, I can see that you're not getting what I'm writing.  I'm doing my best to articulate what I'm picking up, that's written by others.  If you do a meta-analysis of what's been written, you'll understand that it's not I who's going back-n-forth.  And if you get what I write, my comments have nothing to do with not wanting to try anything.
 
Now you state the transforming from a digital sample to analog audio is relatively simple,
 
Absolutely.  Think about it.  Considering the many different number of DAC chips that can be had in all kinds of electronic gear from cell phones to microwaves to televisions to sound recorders and then consider the number of DAC engineers that exist in Silicon Valley alone, yes, it is relatively simple.  I'm surrounded by custom chip manufactures where I live from HP, Apple, Intel, AMD, IBM, VLSI, LSI, Applied Materials, NVidia and quite literally, a thousand other companies of various kinds, all working with DACs.  And how many Silicon Valley style communities are there around the world?  Please, I'm not trying to get in an argument over the obvious.
 
and that the makers of these products are lying to sell their products.  Are you implying that I am not hearing actual differences, just lies from the manufacturer?
 
Not at all.  I'm saying manufactures intentionally keeping things shaken up (like pretty much all manufactures) to keep people buying equipment and they're purposefully changing the sound of their gear to keep folks buying their gear, assuring continued cash flow.  Anybody who thinks there's no skulduggery going on is kidding only themselves.
 
If you don't want to purchase, just decide that you don't want to purchase, don't lump manufacturers together and state that they lie about their products just to sell them.
 
Please.  You're now running with the ball.  I've never stated that I don't want to purchase a DAC, so don't go there.  This thread has been very revealing, regarding DACs.  If I want to lump manufactures together, I'm more than welcome to, don't need anybody's permission to do so and nowhere have I written that anybody's lying.  And you're more than welcome to believe anything you like regarding how manufactures comport themselves.  Please, it would help if you read and comprehend what I write and please, don't embellish what I write.  That would be kind of you. 
 
If you want to go off on somebody, for whatever reason, you're welcome to but if you want to go off on me, I'll just put you on ignore as I'm not here to do drama.
 
Sep 21, 2010 at 10:40 PM Post #129 of 158
If that's directed at me, it's; You who...???  Why that's; You me who.
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Currently, the Audio-gd NFB-1 never happened for many reasons.  Sooooooo, from the Buy/Sell forum I closed a deal on an April Music Stello DA100 Signature DAC.  New, it costs more than the NFB-1 and used, about four or five months old, less than a new NFB-1.  The unit should be installed, up and running by late next week.
 
Something else I found interesting during this threads tenor, it seems that all the "professional" reviews I read have a certain boiler plate similarity in that I never read a bad review and units being reviewed, seemed to a one, to be equal to or better than much more expensive DACs; all giant killers.  Now how can that be unless there's subterfuge or skulduggery going on, on the part of somebody?
 
I know this isn't a popular thought but out there in DAC-land, there's a whole lotta side-stepping going on.  Oh yeah, and you can trust everyone of em.
 
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Sep 22, 2010 at 4:00 AM Post #130 of 158
Congrats on your purchase. It takes a while of reading professional reviews before you can be able to discern the bad ones. In essence, it's just as you said, there are no bad reviews. A reviewer is not going to come out and say point blank that a certain product sounds horrible. It would be bad publicity for the manufacturer. So rather than say a certain product sounds horrible, a reviewer will go about discretely naming negative aspects of said product throughout the review. Or in some reviews, there will be no negative aspects, but a rather lack of overall enthusiasm.
 
Sep 22, 2010 at 4:16 AM Post #131 of 158
You choose a Stello 100S above the NFB-1? You surely read reviews different then I do!
 
Sep 22, 2010 at 4:44 AM Post #132 of 158
the only thing the Valab made me sell was the Valab.  Average at best, and i genuinely fail to understand how an upgraded IEC socket is going to overcome the issue of the TDA1543 chips being, well, TDA1543 chips ^_^  they sound their age, in a bad way.
 
Sep 22, 2010 at 11:16 AM Post #133 of 158
computerparts wrote:
 
Congrats on your purchase.
 
Thanks!
 
It takes a while of reading professional reviews before you can be able to discern the bad ones. In essence, it's just as you said, there are no bad reviews. A reviewer is not going to come out and say point blank that a certain product sounds horrible. It would be bad publicity for the manufacturer. So rather than say a certain product sounds horrible, a reviewer will go about discretely naming negative aspects of said product throughout the review. Or in some reviews, there will be no negative aspects, but a rather lack of overall enthusiasm.
 
I do appreciate your candor but in the case of reviews such as you described, you have a clear form of skulduggery.  If a piece of gear sucks, come right out and say it; this gear stinks and this is the reason why.  The company brings bad publicity on themselves by putting bad gear on the market.  That's why I wrote of price points as price should be a reflection of quality.  In a three hundred dollar DAC, this is what can be expected.  Instead you have three hundred dollars DAC reviews describing the reviewed DAC as a giant killer of DAC's much more expensive.  Sweeeeeet.  Yet nobody will say what's to be expected of different price points in a DAC.  It's not the reviewer's fault who makes an honest evaluation because they noticed.  When somebody writes in code, and only those who know the code will understand, then the reviewer is being disingenuous at best and intellectually dishonest at worse.  Not arguing with your above but a reader shouldn't have to know the code in order to understand the validity of a review.
 
FWIW, not knowing I had to, I did take time to carefully read the reviews and looked for and made note of nuances (the devil is in the details), hence why I'm so vocal or critical in the displeasures of my findings.  As one local politician likes to speak:  "Say what you mean and mean what you say."  I'd like to see all folks go by those words.  We can be thoughtful about what we have to say but we should also not be chastised for speaking the truth as we see it; opinion.
 
Again, thanks for the thought.
 
dura wrote:
 
You choose a Stello 100S above the NFB-1? You surely read reviews different then I do!
 
With all due respect, correct me if I'm wrong but there are no reviews out on the NFB-1 to compare against the Stello DA100 Signature as so far it seems, the NFB-1 hasn't been shipped.  And FWIW, the NFB-1, by Kingwa's own admission is a motherless child.  How's that?  He's going send the product out in REF5's clothes because he's so sure of the product's sales potential, that he'd rather dress it up as a REF5 then give it it's own identity.  What this tells me is, the company has serious cash flow problems.  Nobody dresses a new product up in another product's clothing and expects the new product to be well received.  Yes, it matters, I want "any" product I purchase to have it's own identity.  We're talking about simply having the enclosure re-silk screened, minimal costs.
 
There's many, many other reasons that I didn't buy the NFB-1 that I won't go into and none of the reasons have to do with product quality questions.  Folks are welcome to buy the NFB-1 all day long and I'm sure they'll be very, very happy with their decision.
 
In the meantime, based solely on the content of this thread, the several other threads I've waded through and the many off forum reviews I've read, I'll be very happy with the used (four or five months old and yet to be delivered) Stello DA100 Signature DAC as it will do everything that I expect of the mature technology in today's DAC's.  Why?  As an analogy, in city driving, my eleven year old pick-up truck with ladders and tool boxes goes just as fast as all the sports cars that pull up along side of me during the work day.  How's that you ask?  Because of speed limits and traffic lights.  In the case of city streets, it's not about speed because it's about safety.  And that analogy seems to apply to CD's in that you're limited by Redbook specifications and the quality of each recording on the CD you're listening to, not to mention the many limitations introduced by gear between the CD and the DAC and DAC and your ears.  I can neither afford nor am I attempting to put together the perfect listening system.  Why?  All I'm wanting to do is clean up the rough edges and be happy.  So far, I have close to three thousand USD's into this sojourn, including beginning tagents of a portable kind, which in my and my wife's book, is more than a reasonable effort to achieve this lofty goal.  More than this, and it will have to happen without me.
 
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Being a critic of reality is not always an appreciated art form.
 
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Sep 22, 2010 at 11:24 AM Post #134 of 158


Quote:
the only thing the Valab made me sell was the Valab.  Average at best, and i genuinely fail to understand how an upgraded IEC socket is going to overcome the issue of the TDA1543 chips being, well, TDA1543 chips ^_^  they sound their age, in a bad way.


LOL...thats fine, your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.
 
 
Hearing is a Subjective experience....
 

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