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DAC difference
Mar 1, 2021 at 6:50 PM Post #31 of 577
bigshot said:
The proper combination of components matter, but I think you would be very hard pressed to find a DAC, DAP, disc player or amp that doesn't produce sound better than human ears can hear. The transducers are the wild card. You'll need to make sure you are using the right amp for your transducers, particularly with IEMs. But beyond that the main difference between electronics is features, not audible sound quality.



I have Oppo PM-1s and a really good screening/listening room with a multichannel speaker system. I've compared DACs and players from the Oppo HA-1 and BDP-103 to a ProTools workstation, to all manner of Mac stuff, all the way down to $100 Sony and Pioneer blu-ray players and a $40 Walmart DVD player.
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Then I guess all the folks that can afford higher gear are just suckers? Successful, rich suckers?
Pffft. Keep telling yourself dacs, amps, and cables don't matter.
 
Mar 1, 2021 at 6:56 PM Post #32 of 577
No, there are purposes for high end gear. You may need specific formats or features that aren't offered on low end models. For instance, I have an Oppo BDP-103D. It produces the exact same audio and video signal through HDMI as my $99 Sony blu-ray player. But the Oppo is region free, I can rip SACDs using it, it has Darbee image enhancement, it has a wide range of settings for calibration, it has analog audio outputs, it can stream over wifi, and it's built like a tank. Those features are worth the price to me.

If you have a basic understanding of how home audio components work and the science behind them, you know better what matters and what doesn't. Throwing money at stereo equipment is a better way to go broke than it is to improve the sound of your home audio equipment.

There are issues that matter a hell of a lot more than whether a $1200 DAC sounds better than a $40 DVD player. But audiophile forums are more focused on Brobnigagian discussions of gnat hairs and spending too much money than they are on putting together a kick ass home audio system.
 
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Mar 1, 2021 at 6:58 PM Post #33 of 577
bigshot said:
No, there are purposes for high end gear. You may need specific formats or features that aren't offered on low end models. For instance, I have an Oppo BDP-103D. It produces the exact same audio and video signal through HDMI as my $99 Sony blu-ray player. But the Oppo is region free, I can rip SACDs using it, it has Darbee image enhancement, it has a wide range of settings for calibration, it has analog audio outputs, it can stream over wifi, and it's built like a tank. Those features are worth the price to me.

If you have a basic understanding of how home audio components work and the science behind them, you know better what matters and what doesn't. Throwing money at stereo equipment is a better way to go broke than it is to improve the sound of your home audio equipment.
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I agree with the money thing. Is a 5k dac better than most 1k dac? I think so, sonically as well.
Is it worth 5k, no. Is it 5x better than the 1k counterpart? No way.
 
Mar 1, 2021 at 7:00 PM Post #34 of 577
The $1k one doesn't sound 10 times better than a $100 one either. In fact, to human ears, it sounds exactly the same. The DAC chip is doing the heavy lifting, converting from digital to analogue and putting out a signal to specs that far exceed your ability to hear. There are factories cranking out DAC chips on a massive scale and selling them to manufactures for less than the cost of a dinner at Denny's- even the chips in high end components. The sound quality isn't what you're paying for. You're paying for features and design.
 
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Mar 1, 2021 at 7:10 PM Post #35 of 577
bigshot said:
The $1k one doesn't sound 10 times better than a $100 one either. In fact, to human ears, it sounds exactly the same. A DAC chip costs less than a dinner at Denny's. Even the ones in high end components. The chip is doing the conversion from digital to analogue and putting out a signal to specs that far exceed your ability to hear. The sound quality isn't what you're paying for. You're paying for features and design.
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Yes run of the mill poop dac chips are indeed garbage, glary, full of treble spikes, detail is marginal, ect. Most of the time it comes to how it's implemented with the surrounding components, power, amp section ect.
Fpga dac chips are far fsr better, in measument and clear audiable traits, no doubt. The market wouldn't work otherwise.
Luckily it appears Fpga tech is available at decreasing prices so now, you can have the sub 1k dacs far better than the typical off shelf generic dac chips that most phones or cheap daps have.
Those are poop.
I've had them too at the beginning of my journey, and while they were *cool*... I was able to lie to myself that it didn't matter until I heard higher end dacs, and everything they did from isolation usb noise to better power handling to Fpga to supercaps if it had any ect... All mattered sonically.
The Gauge is... Where do the diminishing returns start? Very shortly after 1k I belive.
But to me 1k dacs were 10x better than the diarrhea being sold for 100$
 
Mar 1, 2021 at 7:26 PM Post #37 of 577
InstantSilence said:
Yes run of the mill poop dac chips are indeed garbage, glary, full of treble spikes, detail is marginal, ect. Most of the time it comes to how it's implemented with the surrounding components, power, amp section ect. Fpga dac chips are far fsr better, in measument and clear audiable traits, no doubt. The market wouldn't work otherwise. Luckily it appears Fpga tech is available at decreasing prices so now, you can have the sub 1k dacs far better than the typical off shelf generic dac chips that most phones or cheap daps have. Those are poop. I've had them too at the beginning of my journey, and while they were *cool*... I was able to lie to myself that it didn't matter until I heard higher end dacs, and everything they did from isolation usb noise to better power handling to Fpga to supercaps if it had any ect... All mattered sonically. The Gauge is... Where do the diminishing returns start? Very shortly after 1k I belive. But to me 1k dacs were 10x better than the diarrhea being sold for 100$
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We get hundreds and hundreds of people here in Sound Science parroting the hot air that passes for information on audiophile boards. A lot of it is complete hooey. You are clearly getting your information from manufacturer's advertisements and subjective evaluations bathed in expectation and validation bias. People who have objectively researched things don't talk about "journeys" or what is "cool". And they don't get aggressive the second someone disagrees with them. The ask for evidence and facts and explanations.

There is one way to tell if what you are saying is true... a simple line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind listening test. Until you have done it yourself, you don't know. Everything you say may be a lie fed to you by high end audio salesmen. I've done the test myself. I know for myself. I'm not parroting what I hear in audiophile forums. Here in Sound Science all opinions are not equal. We get to point out things like bias, placebo effect, the errors inherent in subjective impressions and perceptual error. You can't do that in any other forum on Head-Fi except this one. Maybe that is the reason you hear something different when you come here.

In any case, if you sincerely would like to put your opinions to the test, I'd be happy to help you. It's not difficult or expensive to set up DBX tests. We've had people here posting this kind of gobledegook before whose minds were completely changed by a simple controlled listening test. Don't just trust what I tell you. Don't trust audiophool forums or snake oil salesmen either. Do the test and find out for yourself. I'm sure you'll be surprised at what you learn.
 
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Mar 1, 2021 at 8:04 PM Post #38 of 577
bigshot said:
We get hundreds and hundreds of people here in Sound Science parroting the hot air that passes for information on audiophile boards. A lot of it is complete hooey. You are clearly getting your information from manufacturer's advertisements and subjective evaluations bathed in expectation and validation bias. People who have objectively researched things don't talk about "journeys" or what is "cool". And they don't get aggressive the second someone disagrees with them. The ask for evidence and facts and explanations.

There is one way to tell if what you are saying is true... a simple line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind listening test. Until you have done it yourself, you don't know. Everything you say may be a lie fed to you by high end audio salesmen. I've done the test myself. I know for myself. I'm not parroting what I hear in audiophile forums. Here in Sound Science all opinions are not equal. We get to point out things like bias, placebo effect, the errors inherent in subjective impressions and perceptual error. You can't do that in any other forum on Head-Fi except this one. Maybe that is the reason you hear something different when you come here.

In any case, if you sincerely would like to put your opinions to the test, I'd be happy to help you. It's not difficult or expensive to set up DBX tests. We've had people here posting this kind of gobledegook before whose minds were completely changed by a simple controlled listening test. Don't just trust what I tell you. Don't trust audiophool forums or snake oil salesmen either. Do the test and find out for yourself. I'm sure you'll be surprised at what you learn.
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Excellent post.
 
Mar 1, 2021 at 8:12 PM Post #40 of 577
I'm not sure about AK, but I have the three other ones you mention. Same experience.

I have a R2R too! I can hear hiss with that.
 
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Mar 1, 2021 at 8:18 PM Post #42 of 577
I always wonder when people talk about sound quality in terms of price range. Apparently he thought $1000 sounded better than $100 and $5000 only sounded a little bit better. I guess it doesn't matter what component you choose, just what you pay for it. Maybe Walmart should market their $40 DVD player to audiophiles for $1000.
 
Mar 1, 2021 at 8:23 PM Post #44 of 577
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