Current most neutral/accurate IEM?
Dec 18, 2009 at 3:58 PM Post #46 of 110
Quote:

You guys don't understand what the curves on Headrooms site mean. They are merely a way to compare diffferent devices and have nothing in common with the response that you hear. There are two standard occluded ear simulators available for measuring insert earphones and similiar devices (hearing aids,etc). Tyll spent a good deal of money, but did not want to spend the ($10-15K or more) extra money for the most accurate coupler device. Something is very wrong with the ER-4S curve shown. My guess is that the filter was missing.

Don Wilson
Etymotic Research


Just fyi.
 
Dec 18, 2009 at 6:02 PM Post #47 of 110
Quote:

Originally Posted by bcpk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Just fyi.


What is he talking about?
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCom...=0&graphID=743
http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/images/...y-graphic3.jpg
The ER4S do reproduce a neutral response in acoustic conditions though (thanks to that upper mids boost) as it's explained on their website.
But if you compare the black and grey filters of the PFEs (which basically sound like the ER4S with the grey filters), the blacks filters sound obviously more neutral to my ears.
 
Dec 18, 2009 at 6:20 PM Post #48 of 110
Don't forget about the Phonak PFE.

/nevermind, didn't make it to the last page...
biggrin.gif
 
Dec 18, 2009 at 6:44 PM Post #49 of 110
[size=small]The true king of the ER4 world is reputedly the ER4B. They were the original ER4. However, for whatever reason, some people complained that they were "too bright." Etymotics responded by releasing the ER4s and the later ER4P. However, the ER4B reportedly has the best balance and neutrality. As far as them being too bright, it seems that those complaining about that simply did not allow enough time for them to burn in.

I auditioned the ER4S/ER4P at a Head-fi meet. However, based on the recommendations of head-fiers like Vertigo ann Dan Humphrey who referred to the ER4B is the true flagship of the ER4 line. To Vertigo, the ER4B offers the best compromise between transparency and details. He also is one of the very best reviewers the Head-fi has. Let me treat you to a response from Vertigo to myself when I solicited opinions on the most transparent IEM:

Hi Jap,

Alright, seems like we're on the same page now regarding those pesky audiophile terms. Now I can describe the 4Bs to you a bit more. Just for the record, I've never heard the UE-10s, and I likely never will. I just don't see myself going through the hassle of having molds made...and I think the price is just a wee bit high for a IEM, especially after you factor in the cost of a visit to the audiologist + cost of molds.

First I should probably debunk the myth that the 4Bs are bright. They're not bright at all...in fact they don't even sound anywhere
near bright. I've heard some pretty nasty bright headphones before, like the Grado SR-325 and RS-2...now those were painfully bright. The treble response of the 4Bs can only be described as buttery smooth. I've had several people listen to my 4Bs before at Headfi meets, including a few that prefer a deliberately warmer sound with less emphasis on the treble, and not a single one of them ever complained about the treble. All of them commented on how smooth the ER-4s sounded (I never told them which version they were listening to, nor did they care), and how much inner detail they could hear over whatever headphones they were used to.

Now here's the thing...straight out of the box, the 4Bs are bright. The treble does sound a bit shrill. I've generally found the same for the 4Ps and 4S as well, but more so with the 4Bs. The ER-4s do very much have a burn in period, and pretty much what's affected the most is the treble, in that it goes from being slightly shrill to being a very smooth treble response. I've owned the 4P and 4S twice each before, along with my current 4B, and this has been my experience. In the case of both the 4P and 4S, the treble would get so smooth as to make it sound dull. The 4B's treble though becomes smooth but still retains a certain crisp quality to it, so that cymbals sound like cymbals and not like a loaf of bread being wacked instead.

I've already stated in the past that the 4Bs
sound the flattest to my ears among the three ER-4s available. They don't necessarily sound more detailed than the 4P/4S...it's simply that they're equalized in a way that heightens their clarity compared to the other two. Whereas I feel the 4P and 4S both have a deliberately warm midrange that hides details in the midrange, the 4B's midrange is just simply smooth and flat. I also felt the treble of the 4P's treble was heavily rolled off, and the 4S' treble was slightly rolled off, compared to the 4B's. The end result is the 4B's treble decay sounds more extended than either of the other two ER-4s.

Speaking of decays...I haven't had a problem with decays being cut short with my 4Bs. With both cymbals and drums, I can clearly hear them trail off until they naturally fade away...and this is something that the detail loving side of me is
very picky about perfecting. They have the same amount of decay in my system as both the SA5000s, and the Omega IIs...that is, all three reproduce cymbals and drums with their maximum extension and decay, until it naturally fades away completely. I will say though, I had to do some pretty insane cable buying and selling before I was able to get my system to the point where it would reproduce decays to their fullest extent. Cables aside though, the point is, the ER-4s are capable of reproducing decays to their fullest extent.

As far as the 4Bs go in general...I find that they provide the best balance between details and transparency out of all the headphones I've heard to date. They sound quite flat...compared to just about any headphone out there, there's nothing about the 4Bs that tonally sticks out. Just about all full sized headphones fatigue me one way or another because they tend to boost one particular frequency over the others, whether it be the treble, bass, or midrange (the exception perhaps being the Grado HP-1s).

Normally you would associate flat sounding with boring, and this would be true if the soundstage also happened to be dry and lifeless, but in the 4B's case, they also have a very smooth, full soundstage. It's not clinical and dry, but has an airiness to it that gives life to the musical presentation. Thanks to this soundstage, the 4Bs manage to have a high degree of resolution and cohesion to the sound. Then there's also the attributes the ER-4s are famous for like a speedy presentation along with the 20db of isolation that provides you with a detailed listening experience. They aren't the last word as far as details are concerned, but that's only because I've heard the SA5000s. Prior to the SA5000s, I didn't think there was anything more detailed than the 4Bs.

So, at least for now, the ER-4Bs remain my all time favorite headphone. Like I was saying, transparency and detail usually don't live together very well, but the ER-4Bs manage to pull it off very nicely.
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Dec 18, 2009 at 7:21 PM Post #50 of 110
I voted ER4S above but forgot about this huge contradiction on the Ety website that no one seems to be able to explain. Is it really that balanced?

From the Etymotic website:

Target Curve Explained
Target curves on Etymotic frequency response accuracy graphs define 100% accuracy as the open ear diffuse-field response of the KEMAR manikin, modified to compensate for the high frequency boost added to high-quality recordings. This modification (approximately 5 dB at 10 kHz) is necessary to avoid earphones sounding too bright on commercial recordings. Commercial recordings have a high-frequency boost that compensates for the high frequency roll-off in studio monitor loudspeakers and high-quality stereo loudspeakers and earphones.


Perhaps I am reading/interpreting this wrong but I am confused in two regards.

1) If the curve goes up on the right side (as it does with ER4) isn't this boosting the high frequency? The point above leads me to think that commercial recordings are already high frequency boosted and the Ety "modification" is to tame it down some (5 dB). Is this correct?

2) If it is correct and Ety is taming down that natural high frequecy boost, how come they STILL reveal more high frequecies than any other IEM by a long shot?
 
Dec 18, 2009 at 7:33 PM Post #51 of 110
The human ear is most sensitive to frequencies between 1,000 to 5,000 Hz which is perhaps related to the bump in those freqs on the graph.
 
Dec 18, 2009 at 7:59 PM Post #52 of 110
Quote:

There's NO WAY IE8 could be neutral, unless you're used to it. The bass boost is obvious when you do an a/b with other universals.


I disagree. What sounds like a bass boost in the IE8 strikes me more as the bass/sub-bass rolloff among other IEMs.

When I thought I heard a midbass boost, I did an EQ cut at 150 hz, instruments that sound in that frequency--string bass, tuba--sounded head-cold congested, and I had to flatten it again.

I wasn't hearing a boost, but rather the return of the missing frequencies below.
 
Dec 19, 2009 at 12:19 AM Post #53 of 110
Quote:

Originally Posted by bcpk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The human ear is most sensitive to frequencies between 1,000 to 5,000 Hz which is perhaps related to the bump in those freqs on the graph.


If that's the case, Etymotic goofed in BOOSTING their IEM's higher frequencies. It's a complete contradiction to what they are saying the "correction" needs to be.

I'll still say UM3X is about as neutral, accurate and flat as you can get. Very natural sounding as well.
 
Dec 19, 2009 at 12:35 AM Post #54 of 110
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyro /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I voted ER4S above but forgot about this huge contradiction on the Ety website that no one seems to be able to explain. Is it really that balanced?

From the Etymotic website:

Target Curve Explained
Target curves on Etymotic frequency response accuracy graphs define 100% accuracy as the open ear diffuse-field response of the KEMAR manikin, modified to compensate for the high frequency boost added to high-quality recordings. This modification (approximately 5 dB at 10 kHz) is necessary to avoid earphones sounding too bright on commercial recordings. Commercial recordings have a high-frequency boost that compensates for the high frequency roll-off in studio monitor loudspeakers and high-quality stereo loudspeakers and earphones.


Perhaps I am reading/interpreting this wrong but I am confused in two regards.

1) If the curve goes up on the right side (as it does with ER4) isn't this boosting the high frequency? The point above leads me to think that commercial recordings are already high frequency boosted and the Ety "modification" is to tame it down some (5 dB). Is this correct?

2) If it is correct and Ety is taming down that natural high frequecy boost, how come they STILL reveal more high frequecies than any other IEM by a long shot?



Haha it took me a long time to understand their explanation
biggrin.gif

I think you're mixing up two different things. The boost you see on the curve is not in the high frequency (around 10 Khz) but rather in the upper mids (around 2,5 Khz). What Etymotic basically says is that commercial recordings usually have a treble boost around 10 Khz so in order to prevent harshness the ER4 have some treble roll off. I think that's a good idea as from my experience commercial recordings can sound too agressive with treble-oriented headphones.

Now concerning the upper mids boost that you see on the curve you have to read the other important part:

Quote:

Accurate Earphone Reproduction
For earphones to have 100% accuracy, a recording of a live performance must produce exactly the same sound at the eardrum as the original performance. Sounds simple, but to achieve this, the acoustic properties of the ear must be factored in. The acoustic resonance and horn effects of the ear change a flat audio signal entering the open ear to sound (heard at the eardrum) that has a high frequency boost at approximately 2700 Hz in the typical ear canal.

A perfect earphone creates the same frequency characteristic at the eardrum.


The important thing here is that the ER4 try to recreate all the resonance and effects of a live performance. In order to do that they need to boost the upper mids. So they're not neutral. They just make live recordings sound as if you were in a concert hall. And what they call "listener's perceived response" is IMO not what you actually hear through the earphones (the upper mids can't be tamed this way as they are the most sensitive frequencies for the human hearing), it's rather a "projection" of how neutral they would sound compared to a real live performance.
That's how i understand it at least.
 
Dec 19, 2009 at 6:41 AM Post #55 of 110
I don't think you want "accurate". I suspect you really want a set of "very smooth sounding with a bit less top and a bit more bottom, just a little bit". If that's the case, Sony EX500. After 100 hours of burn-in, it begins to sound buttery.
 
Dec 19, 2009 at 1:24 PM Post #57 of 110
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok, so which IEM's that are of the similar price as the W3 would be the closest to what I'm after? I'd like to trade my W3 for one--someone who prefers the "fun" sound of W3 over a more neutral sound.


Westone UM3x
 
Dec 19, 2009 at 1:41 PM Post #58 of 110
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hentai11 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I disagree. What sounds like a bass boost in the IE8 strikes me more as the bass/sub-bass rolloff among other IEMs.

When I thought I heard a midbass boost, I did an EQ cut at 150 hz, instruments that sound in that frequency--string bass, tuba--sounded head-cold congested, and I had to flatten it again.

I wasn't hearing a boost, but rather the return of the missing frequencies below.



Well i didn't play with EQ the last time i had IE8, but i did comparisons with my SE530 and TF10pro (again, when i still had them), and its clear that IE8 has midbass boost. However you were right about the lack of sub-bass roll-off i suppose, its not clearly hear-able unless you adjust the bass port.

Not that its really a bad thing, once you get used to it and not being fussy to compare with IEMs to find fault, most would be greatly satisfied with IE8's smooth presentation and headphone like soundstage.
 

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