[dongster]

I personally like to match at 700Hz as I find that to more accurately represent subjective perception:



Yellow: ProPhile 8 no switches
Green: VE8
Blue: VE6 X1


I actually compared the PP8, VE8 and VE6 Xcontrol side by side and too say the VE8 is darker than booth. I'd put that down to the VE8's bass and full bodied and warm midrange. Especially the PP8 is much leaner from 200-600Hz.

Absolutely, but I personally wouldn't be happy spending over 2k for an IEM I need to EQ and rather go for a different IEM instead

Thanks for the input bartzky
i guess the VE8 indeed has more treble energy than the other 2, but the bass is masking some of the treble.

What do you think about the FR response after 5K? the VE8 is almost flat after, while the Prophile 8 drops in a somewhat linear slope.
I know that the PP8 curve after 5K is closer to the Harman target curve. Which one did you find better?

MFG

 

[bartzky]

What do you think about the FR response after 5K? the VE8 is almost flat after, while the Prophile 8 drops in a somewhat linear slope.
I know that the PP8 curve after 5K is closer to the Harman target curve. Which one did you find better?

The PP8 still has got it's switches. When both switches are engaged it surely makes the PP8 somewhat more comparable to the VE8:

Yellow: PP8
Green: VE8

I can't really say that I find one to be better. They're pretty much in the same ballpark IMO. If the PP8 is to neutral for your tastes and the Andromeda not neutral enough there's the VE8 perfectly in between them

 

[dongster]

The PP8 still has got it's switches. When both switches are engaged it surely makes the PP8 somewhat more comparable to the VE8:



Yellow: PP8
Green: VE8

I can't really say that I find one to be better. They're pretty much in the same ballpark IMO. If the PP8 is to neutral for your tastes and the Andromeda not neutral enough there's the VE8 perfectly in between them

I see.
Shame the PP8 doesnt have custom yet, certainly great value!

 

[dongster]

I see.
Shame the PP8 doesnt have custom yet, certainly great value!

And thanks for the discussion

 

[castleofargh]

...
...Absolutely, but I personally wouldn't be happy spending over 2k for an IEM I need to EQ and rather go for a different IEM instead

and it's something I will probably never understand(or agree with) ^_^. to me that's the equivalent of expecting custom shells without sending ear impressions simply because the price is premium.
-we have different bodies.
-at least part of the frequency response is altered and brain calibrated by that possibly unique body.
hence needing a possibly unique signature.

the statistical chances to get that signature just for me while waiting for a manufacturer to guess right is realistically pretty slim, and I'm yet to try any IEM or headphone where some EQ couldn't feel better to me than the original tuning. on the other hand I admit that we aren't born with EQ skills, so it can take time and efforts to "find ourselves" using EQ.

 

[dongster]

and it's something I will probably never understand(or agree with) ^_^. to me that's the equivalent of expecting custom shells without sending ear impressions simply because the price is premium.
-we have different bodies.
-at least part of the frequency response is altered and brain calibrated by that possibly unique body.
hence needing a possibly unique signature.

the statistical chances to get that signature just for me while waiting for a manufacturer to guess right is realistically pretty slim, and I'm yet to try any IEM or headphone where some EQ couldn't feel better to me than the original tuning. on the other hand I admit that we aren't born with EQ skills, so it can take time and efforts to "find ourselves" using EQ.

Thats a very good point. But i think for some people including myself a bit, EQ is just gives excessive choice if that makes sense. I always end up playing with the infinite combinations of EQ and never have peace of mind.

Does EQing down a frequency region harm the sound in any way? I know that boosting bass with EQ can distort. And ive expererienced EQs that makes all other frequencies quieter when i boost bass.

And do you happen to know if the Harman curve applies to IEM as well?

 

[castleofargh]

I will give a really crappy answer and I'm sorry for that, but it depends, on listening level, driver used... as a rule of thumb though I wouldn't worry about degrading the sound when attenuating a vast area like the low end in the example you were discussing. that's without a doubt the safest sort of EQ one could use. and aside from the fact that I'm a little scared of making a false claim, in practice you could very well end up improving the distortion levels on your IEM.

about Harman and IEM vs headphones, I honestly have no certainty(what a useless dude that guy is!!!!^_^). for example, my personal gut feelings tell me that I tend to prefer more bass on IEMs than on headphones. so I'd be inclined to think that the Harman series of experiments with IEMs would result a some differences. but I don't even have a proper way to measure that correctly even just for myself to confirm the feeling isn't only in my head. as for the reason for that preference(if it exists), I don't know.

confidence is my middle name.

 

[bartzky]

and it's something I will probably never understand(or agree with) ^_^.

I think you got me a bit wrong there. I'm by far not against EQing. I myself use REW, EQ APO and a RME ADI-2 Pro with it's mighty DSP in combination with the convolver Jriver has got.
But I'd always buy a headphone/earphone that is as close to my preference as possible. And for over 2k it better be very close. Especially because the refinement of the tuning is a big selling point in this price range. The more expensive a headphone is the less I'd like to feel the need to EQ it.

@dongster already knows his preference and there already is an IEM that seems to hit his preference more than the VE8 that even is 1k cheaper than the VE8 and delivers a similar performance. So why bother with EQing? Of course he could buy an IEM closer to his preference and then additionaly use an EQ to make it an even better experience.

 

[dongster]

I will give a really crappy answer and I'm sorry for that, but it depends, on listening level, driver used... as a rule of thumb though I wouldn't worry about degrading the sound when attenuating a vast area like the low end in the example you were discussing. that's without a doubt the safest sort of EQ one could use. and aside from the fact that I'm a little scared of making a false claim, in practice you could very well end up improving the distortion levels on your IEM.

about Harman and IEM vs headphones, I honestly have no certainty(what a useless dude that guy is!!!!^_^). for example, my personal gut feelings tell me that I tend to prefer more bass on IEMs than on headphones. so I'd be inclined to think that the Harman series of experiments with IEMs would result a some differences. but I don't even have a proper way to measure that correctly even just for myself to confirm the feeling isn't only in my head. as for the reason for that preference(if it exists), I don't know.

confidence is my middle name.

thanks for the response its interesting to hear your thoughts on the subject

 

[dongster]

I think you got me a bit wrong there. I'm by far not against EQing. I myself use REW, EQ APO and a RME ADI-2 Pro with it's mighty DSP in combination with the convolver Jriver has got.
But I'd always buy a headphone/earphone that is as close to my preference as possible. And for over 2k it better be very close. Especially because the refinement of the tuning is a big selling point in this price range. The more expensive a headphone is the less I'd like to feel the need to EQ it.

@dongster already knows his preference and there already is an IEM that seems to hit his preference more than the VE8 that even is 1k cheaper than the VE8 and delivers a similar performance. So why bother with EQing? Of course he could buy an IEM closer to his preference and then additionaly use an EQ to make it an even better experience.

my thoughts as well, but man only if PP8 is custom, but i think once they release a custom version (which i heard could be as early as 2018), they are gonna slap another 300-400 onto the price for sure

bartzky did you feel any other sonic difference between the PP8 and VE8 beside frequency response?

 

[castleofargh]

I think you got me a bit wrong there. I'm by far not against EQing. I myself use REW, EQ APO and a RME ADI-2 Pro with it's mighty DSP in combination with the convolver Jriver has got.
But I'd always buy a headphone/earphone that is as close to my preference as possible. And for over 2k it better be very close. Especially because the refinement of the tuning is a big selling point in this price range. The more expensive a headphone is the less I'd like to feel the need to EQ it.

@dongster already knows his preference and there already is an IEM that seems to hit his preference more than the VE8 that even is 1k cheaper than the VE8 and delivers a similar performance. So why bother with EQing? Of course he could buy an IEM closer to his preference and then additionaly use an EQ to make it an even better experience.

ok so now I understand your reasoning, still don't agree though
even admitting that more expensive may hopefully lead to better and more refined products, I don't know that it would lead to being closer to you neutral(or mine). I get that my desire for the right sound increases as my wallet gets lighter, I very much feel my tolerance for imperfections go out the window past a certain price point.^_^ but that's a psychological matter, not an audio factor.


@dongster while looking for this link http://asa.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1121/1.4984044 for @bartzky to say that price and signature are more random than we'd like them to be, I noticed the author actually looks into your question about Harman and IEM a little. you might find that more interesting than my gut feelings.

 

[dongster]

ok so now I understand your reasoning, still don't agree though
even admitting that more expensive may hopefully lead to better and more refined products, I don't know that it would lead to being closer to you neutral(or mine). I get that my desire for the right sound increases as my wallet gets lighter, I very much feel my tolerance for imperfections go out the window past a certain price point.^_^ but that's a psychological matter, not an audio factor.


@dongster while looking for this link http://asa.scitation.org/doi/full/10.1121/1.4984044 for @bartzky to say that price and signature are more random than we'd like them to be, I noticed the author actually looks into your question about Harman and IEM a little. you might find that more interesting than my gut feelings.

castleofargh, i think hes saying more along the lines of: if you pay a premium price, it would be ideal to find a unit that suits your taste out of the bag

I kinda feel the same, if I cough up more than 2k euro on a ciem, i want to be happy with every aspect of it, and not have to fix it with EQ. ofc it doesnt mean EQ is bad, just if im paying that much already...

And i think signature has very little to do with price, but rather 1) tuning decision and 2) basic manufacturer competency.
like a 100 bucks gets you a Dunu Titan 1, which is almost dead on the Harmon curve, even more than all the 1000+ iem/ciem, or a bit off Titan 3 (which i own). And not to mention both are single dynamic driver design.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DunuTitan1.pdf

 

[bartzky]

Thats a very good point. But i think for some people including myself a bit, EQ is just gives excessive choice if that makes sense. I always end up playing with the infinite combinations of EQ and never have peace of mind.

I could give you EQ settings or IRS files for many IEMs that will make the IEM measure exactly like the Harman target or other targets, if that helps. I also could give you settings that will force the VE8 to have the FR of the PP8 and vice versa.

And do you happen to know if the Harman curve applies to IEM as well?

As the Harman target is referenced to the eardrum it also applies to earphones that are measured at the eardrum reference point, but that's only theoretically since the target was actually raised using full size headphones. And as @castleofargh already stated the preferences for IEMs and headphones might be different. Since the Harman target is a curve that monitors listeners' preferences a Harman target for IEMs might differ.

bartzky did you feel any other sonic difference between the PP8 and VE8 beside frequency response?

The biggest difference besides FR is the texture and impact of the bass. The VE8 is has a bigger more DD-like impact while the PP8 sounds a bit more controlled with less oomph.

I get that my desire for the right sound increases as my wallet gets lighter, I very much feel my tolerance for imperfections go out the window past a certain price point.^_^ but that's a psychological matter, not an audio factor.

I totally agree. I'm not saying that as the price raises the sound signature will suite my preference more. I'm just saying I want that to be In the real world that's of course not the case.
Besides that I feel that the refinement of the tuning more often enhances when prices are getting higher. That doesn't necessarily mean it will suit a particular sound signature preference better though.
As someone who writes and reads many reviews I think it's important to differentiate between a refined signature and signature that only suits my preferences.

 

[dongster]

I could give you EQ settings or IRS files for many IEMs that will make the IEM measure exactly like the Harman target or other targets, if that helps. I also could give you settings that will force the VE8 to have the FR of the PP8 and vice versa.


As the Harman target is referenced to the eardrum it also applies to earphones that are measured at the eardrum reference point, but that's only theoretically since the target was actually raised using full size headphones. And as @castleofargh already stated the preferences for IEMs and headphones might be different. Since the Harman target is a curve that monitors listeners' preferences a Harman target for IEMs might differ.


The biggest difference besides FR is the texture and impact of the bass. The VE8 is has a bigger more DD-like impact while the PP8 sounds a bit more controlled with less oomph.


I totally agree. I'm not saying that as the price raises the sound signature will suite my preference more. I'm just saying I want that to be In the real world that's of course not the case.
Besides that I feel that the refinement of the tuning more often enhances when prices are getting higher. That doesn't necessarily mean it will suit a particular sound signature preference better though.
As someone who writes and reads many reviews I think it's important to differentiate between a refined signature and signature that only suits my preferences.

Thanks man
i will hit you up with a PM when i get a VE8

 

[Arysyn]

Unless I'm mistaken, both the Grado GR8e and GR10e were listed here, until recently. Now I only see the GR10e listed.