[Nielo TM]

I am actually very concerned about the next gen system. They may already be less powerful than current hardware and if that's the case, the gap will widen much faster and the cycle will repeat itself.

 

[Roller]

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That is not easy and it can't be done if the gap is too wide, which is what we are facing atm. Since 2005, both GPUs and CPUs have undergone tremendous change. We can now run AI, physics, dynamic lighting etc on the GPU or on the GPU side of an APU via DirectCompute or OpenCL. Raw processing power has also vastly increased during the 7 year period. So it's not possible to develop games that take advantage of modern PC hardware and then trim down to fit the consoles (especially when PS3's architecture is so different to PC and 360). That's like developing a game for the HD7870 then trimming it down so it can run on the PowerVR SGX543MP4 found on the iPad 3 hence why developers have chosen a middle-ground but this means high-end PC hardware aren't being utilized or too busy running dirty code.

 
Modern engines are quite scalable, and their mid to low settings can run even on hardware as old as current gen (2006) console hardware.
 
Hopefully, the rumors about APUs being used aren't true, as that kind of hardware is mainly suitable for HTPC usage, or non-interactive content. In any case, most developers agree that the main purpose of the next gen consoles is to bring 1080p running at 60fps, but it's all but certain that photorealistic textures and gobs of shaders are going to be used, saturate bandwidth and get back to struggling to even reach 30fps, just like the current gen does.

 

[chewy4]

Quote:

I am actually very concerned about the next gen system. They may already be less powerful than current hardware and if that's the case, the gap will widen much faster and the cycle will repeat itself.

 
Hardware isn't getting better at as nearly as fast of a rate than it used to though.
Quote:

 
Modern engines are quite scalable, and their mid to low settings can run even on hardware as old as current gen (2006) console hardware.
 
Hopefully, the rumors about APUs being used aren't true, as that kind of hardware is mainly suitable for HTPC usage, or non-interactive content. In any case, most developers agree that the main purpose of the next gen consoles is to bring 1080p running at 60fps, but it's all but certain that photorealistic textures and gobs of shaders are going to be used, saturate bandwidth and get back to struggling to even reach 30fps, just like the current gen does.

Yeah I don't see why they would use APUs... an APU seems like it's more optimized for non-gaming stuff.

 

[Nielo TM]

Quote:

 
Modern engines are quite scalable, and their mid to low settings can run even on hardware as old as current gen (2006) console hardware.
 
Hopefully, the rumors about APUs being used aren't true, as that kind of hardware is mainly suitable for HTPC usage, or non-interactive content. In any case, most developers agree that the main purpose of the next gen consoles is to bring 1080p running at 60fps, but it's all but certain that photorealistic textures and gobs of shaders are going to be used, saturate bandwidth and get back to struggling to even reach 30fps, just like the current gen does.

As I've said previously, games are developed with console in mind as a compromise, which means it can be scaled down but not scaled up to take advantage of modern hardware such as the HD7890.  Since Crysis, there hasn't been a single game that fully utilized the PC hardware. Metro 2033 uses a lot of DirectCompute for post-processing effects but it was poorly implemented.
 
Current gen console have no problems rendering @ 1080p60. But say goodbye to rich visuals. Most likely next gen games will remain 720p30 or 720p60. Personally I prefer for the to put a very powerful GPU that can at least last for 5 years.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

As I've said previously, games are developed with console in mind as a compromise, which means it can be scaled down but not scaled up to take advantage of modern hardware such as the HD7890.  Since Crysis, there hasn't been a single game that fully utilized the PC hardware. Metro 2033 uses a lot of DirectCompute for post-processing effects but it was poorly implemented.
 
Current gen console have no problems rendering @ 1080p60. But say goodbye to rich visuals. Most likely next gen games will remain 720p30 or 720p60. Personally I prefer for the to put a very powerful GPU that can at least last for 5 years.

 
Actually, Metro series is very similar to the first Crysis games, both are a code mess that required insane specs.
 
Next gen consoles will be able to have the base of current gen's maxed out graphics running at 60fps, and that's the main point here. There is potential for some rather smart AA implementations, but that has seldom worked on current gen.
 
In any case, some hardware might be weaker, but not the system as a whole, and having loadings taking up to and more than one minute is simply unacceptable by any conceivable measure.

 

[Nielo TM]

Quote:

 
Hardware isn't getting better at as nearly as fast of a rate than it used to though.
Yeah I don't see why they would use APUs... an APU seems like it's more optimized for non-gaming stuff.

Yes they are especially GP-GPUs (aka parallel computing). CPUs haven't broken moors law and GPUs are advancing faster CPUs due to high demand in the server/super computer sector.
 
Don't forget, PS3's Cell is an APU and they pretty awesome. It's basically serial and parallel processing cores in one, which drastically speeds up over all processing. For an example, you can run decompression, AI, physics etc on the parallel side (GP-GPU side), and run serial tasks such as the OS and the engine on the serial core. The parallel processing core can also be used to aid vector rendering in order to boost visuals or number of frames.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Yes they are especially GP-GPUs (aka parallel computing). CPUs haven't broken moors law and GPUs are advancing faster CPUs due to high demand in the server/super computer sector.
 
Don't forget, PS3's Cell is an APU and they pretty awesome. It's basically serial and parallel processing cores in one, which drastically speeds up over all processing. For an example, you can run decompression, AI, physics etc on the parallel side (GP-GPU side), and run serial tasks such as the OS and the engine on the serial core. The parallel processing core can also be used to aid vector rendering in order to boost visuals or number of frames.

 
Not quite. PS3's Cell (not PC versions of it) is above all a custom CPU that ties itself to a custom Nvidia Geforce 7800GT that offloads specific tasks to Cell. I assembled a render horse at work with an expansion card packing a 3/4 sized Cell processor, and it performs quite nicely. If only it could be used to aid 3D gaming...
 
On the subject of GPGPUs, I'm quite dismayed at how consumer GPUs and workstation GPUs keep having an increasing gap in terms of GPGPU performance, this having begun a couple hardware generations ago, and all for the sake of selling the more expensive, ECC supported, workstation GPUs.
 
About consoles, I sincerely hope the next gen hardware won't go down the same path of newer hardware revisions being cut down in features, beside the obviously beneficial smaller manufacturing processes.

 

[Nielo TM]

Technically it is a an APU. One serial core surrounded by 7 (1 inactive) SPE (when combined forms a parallel core). But its vastly different to AMD's Fusion APU.
 

 

[Nielo TM]

Quote:

On the subject of GPGPUs, I'm quite dismayed at how consumer GPUs and workstation GPUs keep having an increasing gap in terms of GPGPU performance, this having begun a couple hardware generations ago, and all for the sake of selling the more expensive, ECC supported, workstation GPUs.
 
About consoles, I sincerely hope the next gen hardware won't go down the same path of newer hardware revisions being cut down in features, beside the obviously beneficial smaller manufacturing processes.

I don't follow
 
Yes but we'll know for sure in few months

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Technically it is a an APU. One serial core surrounded by 7 (1 inactive) SPE (when combined forms a parallel core). But its vastly different to AMD's Fusion APU.
 

 
Indeed.
 
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I don't follow
 
Yes but we'll know for sure in few months

 
I was talking about how each new PS3 form factor reduced features, from PS2 game compatibility, to the possibility of installing Linux distros, and I/O connectivity. However, Sony did a great job at actually reducing memory usage, which is exactly the opposite of what happened with the Xbox 360.
 
Well, Sony did have a 5 year cycle between hardware generations, so it's already due, but I'm definitely curious to see what it will bring to the table.
 
In any case, I'm still waiting for widespread cross platform multiplayer gaming.

 

[Nielo TM]

and the new form fact is the worst yet.
 
I meant the following
 
"On the subject of GPGPUs, I'm quite dismayed at how consumer GPUs and workstation GPUs keep having an increasing gap in terms of GPGPU performance, this having begun a couple hardware generations ago, and all for the sake of selling the more expensive, ECC supported, workstation GPUs."
 
I don't understand what you mean.
 

 

[Roller]

Quote:

and the new form fact is the worst yet.
 
I meant the following
 
"On the subject of GPGPUs, I'm quite dismayed at how consumer GPUs and workstation GPUs keep having an increasing gap in terms of GPGPU performance, this having begun a couple hardware generations ago, and all for the sake of selling the more expensive, ECC supported, workstation GPUs."
 
I don't understand what you mean.
 

 
Seriously, what's the point of a 12GB console, when such drive can't hold more than 2 games? Sometimes even 2 games are too large.

I was saying that GPGPU performance has had a troubled road on the last two generations of consumer GPUs, which is a clear separation for selling workstation GPUs.

 

[Nielo TM]

What kind of trouble?


PS: Sony made a right mess of things in terms of licensing. They sold the cell to Toshiba effectively killing any prospects of integrating it with the RSX, which means the PS3 can never be as slim as the PS2 and cant compete with the 360 (price wise) hence why MS haven't dropped the price (remember you need to two to tango). ideally both console should be retaling for £100 or less (less than 150 USD)

 

[Roller]

Single and double precision performance has been deliberately crippled on consumer GPUs, while workstation GPUs have full performance according to each architecture. When I say crippled performance, I'm talking about consumer GPUs having 1/4 of the performance workstation GPUs have, something that didn't happen on first generation GPGPU-capable hardware.
 
Indeed. I got a new PS2 a couple years ago for less than 100€, which was a good price, but unfortunately it wasn't the model with the HDD bay.
 
Overall, current gen consoles should've never put backwards compatibility aside, that would've been a major selling point.

 

[Nielo TM]

Was that confined to nVIDIA or did it spill over to AMD as well?
 
PS4 won't be backwards compatible with PS3, but the next 360 will support all 360 games and DLCs. The Wii U is also backwards compatible with previous consoles.