[bfreedma]

Lighten up, G.

The two of you have been denigrating him, his profession, and his integrity in multiple threads for days. And now you want him to “lighten up”?

 

[tansand]

It's so unfortunate it's come to this, he could tell SonicTruth so much if only he'd listen properly.

 

[gregorio]

[1[ My crusade is not "against engineers". [1a] My real crusade is against those far less accessible: artists, their producers, and label execs. Those three entities drive density/'loudness' more than anyone else.
[2] What I have against engineers is their touting things like, a "DDD CD sounds better than AAD" or ADD. Marketing statements.
[2a] With that cleared up, I'd like to hear more about how a mix is made 'compression-friendly' for the mastering stage to come.

1. Then why insult them?
1a. Your crusade is against the wrong people then, because the people who drive density/loudness more than anyone else is consumers.

2. And what I have against you, is the lies you make-up about what engineers are "touting"!! So, that's "that cleared up".
2a. Indeed, "with that cleared up", it couldn't be more OBVIOUS that you do NOT want to know the actual facts!

G

 

[gregorio]

It's so unfortunate it's come to this, he could tell SonicTruth so much if only he'd listen properly.

What is "listening properly" according to you? Apparently it's: Ignoring what has been stated, the facts and the evidence and then just continuing a "crusade" against the wrong people. How's that "listening properly"? It's the exact opposite of "listening properly"!

You're right, I could "tell sonictruth so much" and I have in the recent past but why waste my time if it's ALL going to be either ignored or lied about anyway?

G

 

[TheSonicTruth]

1. Then why insult them?
1a. Your crusade is against the wrong people then, because the people who drive density/loudness more than anyone else is consumers.

2. And what I have against you, is the lies you make-up about what engineers are "touting"!! So, that's "that cleared up".
2a. Indeed, "with that cleared up", it couldn't be more OBVIOUS that you do NOT want to know the actual facts!

G

1a. Well then I must be a pretty F-d up 'consumer', because I'm not demanding albums be made louder.

2. It's just how I perceived what you and other engineers said on here.

2a. I'm waiting for the facts, on the topic I brought up several posts back, about how modern mixes are made compression-friendly.

 

[gregorio]

1a. Well then I must be a pretty F-d up 'consumer' ...
2. It's just how I perceived what you and other engineers said on here.
2a. I'm waiting for the facts, on the topic I brought up several posts back, about how modern mixes are made compression-friendly.

1a. Yep, agreed!! Out of date and in a tiny minority.

2. Again, I agree but then that's a problem with "how YOU perceived". Why insult me and lie about what I've said because of YOUR problem?
2a. Again, yep, you've said that before about other related facts (on more than one occasion), then just ignored (or misrepresented) those facts and carried on with the same made-up facts that you assumed/believed to start with. So why follow the same path yet again? Why don't you just make-up some "facts" which fit your agenda and avoid wasting my time and your own with the actual facts?

G

 

[castleofargh]

@gregorio you're not forced to push on this dialog if you realize it's a waste of your time. but answering to say that it's not worth answering is getting us nowhere.

1a. Well then I must be a pretty F-d up 'consumer', because I'm not demanding albums be made louder.

2. It's just how I perceived what you and other engineers said on here.

2a. I'm waiting for the facts, on the topic I brought up several posts back, about how modern mixes are made compression-friendly.

1a. you're 1 consumer, want to play a game of all the stuff done by entire countries, that we disagree about? that's life. even more so when we're talking about subjective taste here.

2. are you sure sound engineers were the ones to say that? and that they did write what you understood? I know it seems silly, but if we've come this far based only on misinterpretations and misconceptions, now is as good a time as any to make sure.
you've had, to put it nicely, some pretty serious communication issues. if you were a politician, I'd tell you to fire your campaign manager right now, then go kidnap him and cut off his tong so that he can never mess up like he did ever again. that would be the humane thing to do ^_^.
it's super clear that your actual message is "I hate the loudness war". so why do you need to venture left and right into territories you clearly aren't all that familiar with? it started with the DR plugin, and went pretty much everywhere vaguely related to dynamic then compression because after pages you did end up accepting that dynamic wasn't the proper approach. but then for so many pages, people explains how compression is used for everything and vastly different ways and that most uses are indeed making the sound more enjoyable, coherent, cleaner, with the intended sound, or simply more practical. for a time sound engineers were responsible and that's when the DR really hit the fan. understandably IMO. so now we have moved on closer to the actual target and we're mainly discussing the idea of perceived loudness. we're as close as we've ever been.
but do you realize all the mess we went through just because you weren't happy saying "I hate the loudness war!"?

say that the loudness war pisses you off. TBH if you had stuck to that from the start, I and most people would have sided with you.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

@gregorio you're not forced to push on this dialog if you realize it's a waste of your time. but answering to say that it's not worth answering is getting us nowhere.


1a. you're 1 consumer, want to play a game of all the stuff done by entire countries, that we disagree about? that's life. even more so when we're talking about subjective taste here.

2. are you sure sound engineers were the ones to say that? and that they did write what you understood? I know it seems silly, but if we've come this far based only on misinterpretations and misconceptions, now is as good a time as any to make sure.
you've had, to put it nicely, some pretty serious communication issues. if you were a politician, I'd tell you to fire your campaign manager right now, then go kidnap him and cut off his tong so that he can never mess up like he did ever again. that would be the humane thing to do ^_^.
it's super clear that your actual message is "I hate the loudness war". so why do you need to venture left and right into territories you clearly aren't all that familiar with? it started with the DR plugin, and went pretty much everywhere vaguely related to dynamic then compression because after pages you did end up accepting that dynamic wasn't the proper approach. but then for so many pages, people explains how compression is used for everything and vastly different ways and that most uses are indeed making the sound more enjoyable, coherent, cleaner, with the intended sound, or simply more practical. for a time sound engineers were responsible and that's when the DR really hit the fan. understandably IMO. so now we have moved on closer to the actual target and we're mainly discussing the idea of perceived loudness. we're as close as we've ever been.
but do you realize all the mess we went through just because you weren't happy saying "I hate the loudness war!"?

say that the loudness war pisses you off. TBH if you had stuck to that from the start, I and most people would have sided with you.

1. Gregorio said I must be a messed up consumer because I don't demand loudified albums. And just how am I "playing a game" of that?

I googled "music buyers demand music and albums be mastered louder" and came up with nothing. So all I would ask for is proof that consumers did so.

 

[bfreedma]

1. Gregorio said I must be a messed up consumer because I don't demand loudified albums. And just how am I "playing a game" of that?

I googled "music buyers demand music and albums be mastered louder" and came up with nothing. So all I would ask for is proof that consumers did so.

I recall Gregorio posting (I’m paraphrasing) that most consumers preferred louder albums and that put you in the minority. That’s entirely different than calling you “messed up”. It would be great if you could dial down the drama and stick to actual quotes rather than manufacturing them.

There have been numerous posts discussing why the Loudness War happened. Putting a fairly long string in quotes and stating nothing was returned is disingenuous at best. Unless your Google works differently than mine, thousands of links are returned when that search is executed on that search without quotes, even when the search terms are quoted.

I found this link interesting when searching for a more detailed history of the loudness war and theories as to why it happened. Worth the read, as are many of the supporting documents the author references.
https://www.duo.uio.no/bitstream/handle/10852/59847/Devine-LoudnessWars.pdf?sequence=4&isAllowed=y

 

[pinnahertz]

1. Gregorio said I must be a messed up consumer because I don't demand loudified albums. And just how am I "playing a game" of that?

He's right. You are the exception by a huge margin. Making statements that express or imply that your opinion somehow represents a larger group than one is just a game.

I googled "music buyers demand music and albums be mastered louder" and came up with nothing. So all I would ask for is proof that consumers did so.

The proof is, they're buying them, and not returning them and streaming them without objection. Their iPods are loaded with loud music. Second, if a consumer had 3 recordings, and two sounded about the same in loudness, but one was much quieter, which one would the typical consumer think is wrong? Quieter never wins in a comparison, been known for half a century to be true. That translates into "louder is better", and that's what consumers buy. It's not a difficult concept, but you must start out with a viewpoint other than "My opinion is right and typical" to understand it. It's also part of why this can't be fixed.

And "loudified"...ha ha ha! You made up a funny! I think I'll name my next loudness processor the "Loudifier"! And have a knob that indicates Loudification. You should be in marketing!

 

[bfreedma]

He's right. You are the exception by a huge margin. Making statements that express or imply that your opinion somehow represents a larger group than one is just a game.

The proof is, they're buying them, and not returning them and streaming them without objection. Their iPods are loaded with loud music. Second, if a consumer had 3 recordings, and two sounded about the same in loudness, but one was much quieter, which one would the typical consumer think is wrong? Quieter never wins in a comparison, been known for half a century to be true. That translates into "louder is better", and that's what consumers buy. It's not a difficult concept, but you must start out with a viewpoint other than "My opinion is right and typical" to understand it. It's also part of why this can't be fixed.

And "loudified"...ha ha ha! You made up a funny! I think I'll name my next loudness processor the "Loudifier"! And have a knob that indicates Loudification. You should be in marketing!

The Loudifier Knob needs to go to 11.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

He's right. You are the exception by a huge margin. Making statements that express or imply that your opinion somehow represents a larger group than one is just a game.

The proof is, they're buying them, and not returning them and streaming them without objection. Their iPods are loaded with loud music. Second, if a consumer had 3 recordings, and two sounded about the same in loudness, but one was much quieter, which one would the typical consumer think is wrong? Quieter never wins in a comparison, been known for half a century to be true. That translates into "louder is better", and that's what consumers buy. It's not a difficult concept, but you must start out with a viewpoint other than "My opinion is right and typical" to understand it. It's also part of why this can't be fixed.

And "loudified"...ha ha ha! You made up a funny! I think I'll name my next loudness processor the "Loudifier"! And have a knob that indicates Loudification. You should be in marketing!

When I download music purchased on Amazon, I usually choose the quietest version if two or more are available of that 'must-have' hard to find song. By the way I was the one referring humorously to myself as the f-d up consumer who doesn't buy the loudened up so-called remasters of pop songs.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

The Loudifier Knob needs to go to 11.

Once again, as I did on GearSlutz and Steve Hoffman's, I find myself in the minority on the subject of loudness, and the butt of jokes.

That's fine! I forgive all of you, as did Christ already. Peace to you!

 

[tansand]

He's right. You are the exception by a huge margin. Making statements that express or imply that your opinion somehow represents a larger group than one is just a game.

Oh. bull. crap. Google "loudness war". I just found metal guys that are pissed about it.

What can I do about it?

Evangelize dynamics! Tell your favorite artists and labels (politely) that you value dynamics and are tired of listening to heavily compressed masters. Talk to headbangers at shows, in the mosh pit, wherever, about the value of dynamics in metal.

http://www.metal-fi.com/about-page/dynamic-range/

Like gregorio, you live in a dream world where insulting and diminishing other people somehow means you're right. It's laughable.

 

[tansand]

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