Creating examples of "Loudness Wars" effect

[castleofargh]

Castleofargh said something was a little on the those and I don't think he meant that.

so your solution to me not answering right away(because you know, sometimes I sleep), is to spam the expressions everywhere. are we 10?

 

[gregorio]

You're getting tied up in your own nonsense, calm down.

No, I was replying to your nonsense!

[1] I consider "commercial products like Toto or Boston" to be works of art, in the same vein as Symphony No. 5 by Beethoven or Barber of Seville by Rossini. Once released, not to be effed with.

It might make economic sense, and sell more legacy catalog, but is altering the sound of that catalog right to do? Respectfully, I say NO.
[1a] By changing the sound of those albums, you're changing the perception those first-time listeners, born 20-40 years after the albums originally released, have of them when they listen to them.

[2] Like I said, let's "remaster" the Mona Lisa and the Sistene Chapel ceiling to "appeal to" today's tourists and art fans. Paint the Eiffel Tower in pastel neon colors to "appeal to younger demos"?

1. Excellent example! Beethoven and Rossini are performed significantly differently today compared to how they would have been performed. Bigger string sections, louder brass, stylistically different playing style, better intonation due to far higher instrument manufacturing tolerances. It could be performed much more how Beethoven would have expected but it isn't because classical music audiences today are used to the sound of today's bigger, louder orchestras and wouldn't appreciate how it would have sounded. What characterised Beethoven's music was that it was surprising/shocking and relatively loud compared to those he superseded, if it were performed today with it's original sound, it would be the opposite of both what Beethoven intended and how it would have been experienced by audiences of the day, it would sound relatively quiet and un-surprising/shocking!!
Are today's orchestra conductors monkeys and idiots too, do you "respectfully say NO" to them, should Beethoven not be "effed with"?
1a. Yep, exactly as we do with Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and many/most of the great composers and for exactly the same reason, as I've already explained to you!

2. The Mona Lisa is owned by the Louvre and the Sistine Chapel by the Catholic church, do you think that Sony or EMI (for example) are either museums or religious institutions? Furthermore, it's not as if the original masters are being burned or destroyed, the original masters are archived unaltered and a new, different master is created!

It seems to me a mastering engineer should be limited to finding better condition source, or EQ to fit the format, maybe a little compression for same. They shouldn't be re-interpreting the sound of the master tapes in any case.

What you think mastering engineers should or shouldn't be doing is utterly irrelevant! What mastering engineers actually do is what their clients, the recording rights holders, request them to do.

Which brings up a point: Do engineers with a particular mastering 'style'(such as Lord-Alge and Ludwig) impose that on their clients' projects automatically, or does a discussion take place, prior to mastering, where the artists' visions and desired direction of the project are discussed?

You're joking right? You've been extremely insulting towards mastering engineers and you don't even know what the basic process is or if it actually has anything to do with the mastering engineers you're insulting in the first place! What does that make you?

To answer the question: Virtually all producers and some mastering engineers have a particular style and will impose that style on their clients' projects. As a client, if you don't want that style, then you don't go to that mastering engineer, you go to a different mastering engineer, either one whose particular style is what you want or one who can work in multiple styles. In either case though, pretty much without exception, there are going to be discussions prior to mastering, probably very detailed discussions, about exactly what the artist/rights holder requires and the "desired direction".

G

 

[tansand]

What you think mastering engineers should or shouldn't be doing is utterly irrelevant! What mastering engineers actually do is what their clients, the recording rights holders, request them to do.

Well, I'm the one paying their rent, so not entirely irrelevent.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

No, I was replying to your nonsense!


1. Excellent example! Beethoven and Rossini are performed significantly differently today compared to how they would have been performed. Bigger string sections, louder brass, stylistically different playing style, better intonation due to far higher instrument manufacturing tolerances. It could be performed much more how Beethoven would have expected but it isn't because classical music audiences today are used to the sound of today's bigger, louder orchestras and wouldn't appreciate how it would have sounded. What characterised Beethoven's music was that it was surprising/shocking and relatively loud compared to those he superseded, if it were performed today with it's original sound, it would be the opposite of both what Beethoven intended and how it would have been experienced by audiences of the day, it would sound relatively quiet and un-surprising/shocking!!
Are today's orchestra conductors monkeys and idiots too, do you "respectfully say NO" to them, should Beethoven not be "effed with"?
1a. Yep, exactly as we do with Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and many/most of the great composers and for exactly the same reason, as I've already explained to you!

2. The Mona Lisa is owned by the Louvre and the Sistine Chapel by the Catholic church, do you think that Sony or EMI (for example) are either museums or religious institutions? Furthermore, it's not as if the original masters are being burned or destroyed, the original masters are archived unaltered and a new, different master is created!



What you think mastering engineers should or shouldn't be doing is utterly irrelevant! What mastering engineers actually do is what their clients, the recording rights holders, request them to do.



You're joking right? You've been extremely insulting towards mastering engineers and you don't even know what the basic process is or if it actually has anything to do with the mastering engineers you're insulting in the first place! What does that make you?

To answer the question: Virtually all producers and some mastering engineers have a particular style and will impose that style on their clients' projects. As a client, if you don't want that style, then you don't go to that mastering engineer, you go to a different mastering engineer, either one whose particular style is what you want or one who can work in multiple styles. In either case though, pretty much without exception, there are going to be discussions prior to mastering, probably very detailed discussions, about exactly what the artist/rights holder requires and the "desired direction".

G

Gregorio, you contradicted yourself. In you response to tansand you said:
"What you think mastering engineers should or shouldn't be
doing is utterly irrelevant! What mastering engineers actually
do is what their clients, the recording rights holders, request
them to do."

In response to me you stated:
"To answer the question: Virtually all producers and some mastering
engineers have a particular style and will impose that style on their
clients' projects. As a client, if you don't want that style, then you don't
go to that mastering engineer, you go to a different mastering
engineer,"

Well which one shall it be, Gregorio???

And no, I'm not joking - I'm being stone cold serious. Both Ludwig and Lord-Alge have a reputation, among those who buy albums with their mastering credits, as "hot" mastering engineers: heavy-handed compression, b.w. limiting, etc.
Which to me contradicts some of what Ludwig at least, stated both in interviews available on-line about the density wars, and at the Loudness Seminar session I attended at the 2013 AES Convention in NY.

Either an engineer serves their client and their project, or they serve themself. Can't serve two masters, no puns intended.

 

[gregorio]

Well, I'm the one paying their rent, so not entirely irrelevent.

Have you ever employed a mastering engineer? No? Then you have never paid their rent and you are lying.

Well which one shall it be, Gregorio??? ... Either an engineer serves their client and their project, or they serve themself. Can't serve two masters, no puns intended.

Huh? Both of course, who is serving two masters? If by serving themselves they are serving their client and the client's project, then they are NOT serving two different masters. If by serving themselves they are not serving their client and their client's project then the client would not hire them in the first place! Geez, that's not exactly difficult to understand, surely? If you hated the cubist painting style then why on earth would you hire Picasso to paint your portrait? You'd go to a portrait painter who paints in the style you desire and you'd have to be a complete idiot to hire Picasso!

G

 

[TheSonicTruth]

Have you ever employed a mastering engineer? No? Then you have never paid their rent and you are lying.



Huh? Both of course, who is serving two masters? If by serving themselves they are serving their client and the client's project, then they are NOT serving two different masters. If by serving themselves they are not serving their client and their client's project then the client would not hire them in the first place! Geez, that's not exactly difficult to understand, surely? If you hated the cubist painting style then why on earth would you hire Picasso to paint your portrait? You'd go to a portrait painter who paints in the style you desire and you'd have to be a complete idiot to hire Picasso!

G

If I were a mastering engineer, and on every project I mastered, regardless of genre, I lobbed 10-15dB of bottom octave BASS, regardless of whether or not my clients asked for it, I wouldn't call that serving the needs of my client, I'd call it SELFISH.

To use the restaurant example: A head chef at a restaurant cooks all his customers steaks bloody medium rare, regardless of what his customers tell their waters/waitresses. Let's see how long he remains head chef there, or if soon he'll be relegated to cleaning the TOILET BOWLS.

 

[gregorio]

[1] If I were a mastering engineer, and on every project I mastered, regardless of genre, I lobbed 10-15dB of bottom octave BASS, regardless of whether or not my clients asked for it, I wouldn't call that serving the needs of my client ...
[2] To use the restaurant example: A head chef at a restaurant cooks all his customers steaks bloody medium rare, regardless of what his customers tell their waters/waitresses. Let's see how long he remains head chef there

1. If I were a client and I didn't want 10-15dB lobbed on the bottom octave bass, then I've have to be a complete moron to go and hire a mastering engineer who always lobs on 10-15dB of bottom bass!! If I did hire that mastering engineer then he would be serving my needs.

2. If a chef is famous for cooking the best bloody medium rare steaks and not cooking them any other way, a customer would have to be a moron to order some other sort of steak, in fact they were a moron to go to that restaurant in the first place!

If I wanted to buy a new car but specifically not a Mercedes, why would I only go to a Mercedes dealer, I'd have to be a moron. How do you live your life not understanding something so obvious?

G

 

[Steve999]

so your solution to me not answering right away(because you know, sometimes I sleep), is to spam the expressions everywhere. are we 10?

I was wrong. My sincere apologies. Take care.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

1. If I were a client and I didn't want 10-15dB lobbed on the bottom octave bass, then I've have to be a complete moron to go and hire a mastering engineer who always lobs on 10-15dB of bottom bass!! If I did hire that mastering engineer then he would be serving my needs.

2. If a chef is famous for cooking the best bloody medium rare steaks and not cooking them any other way, a customer would have to be a moron to order some other sort of steak, in fact they were a moron to go to that restaurant in the first place!

If I wanted to buy a new car but specifically not a Mercedes, why would I only go to a Mercedes dealer, I'd have to be a moron. How do you live your life not understanding something so obvious?

G

With respectful regards to examples #1 and #2 Gregorio, here's a big piece of rock for your place of business:

Feel free to print and hang it where desired!


Any engineer who indiscriminately adds unwanted bottom - or anything else - to any project of MINE will kindly get his butt word-of-mouthed straight out of town!

 

[TheSonicTruth]

The contradiction remains unaddressed:

In post #152 Gregorio tells tansand that "what mastering engineers actually do is "what their clients request them to do",
and then tells me that some mastering engineers "have a particular style" and "will impose it" on their client's projects.

These two have different meaning to me, and are two different things as far as I'm concerned. Anyone else see it that way?

 

[RRod]

The contradiction remains unaddressed:

In post #152 Gregorio tells tansand that "what mastering engineers actually do is "what their clients request them to do",
and then tells me that some mastering engineers "have a particular style" and "will impose it" on their client's projects.

These two have different meaning to me, and are two different things as far as I'm concerned. Anyone else see it that way?

I see it as sometimes the alpha in the room isn't always who should be the alpha.

 

[castleofargh]

please stahp.
let's all argue the ideas instead of the people.

 

[tansand]

Have you ever employed a mastering engineer? No? Then you have never paid their rent and you are lying.

Dude I'm the consumer, I pay the record company, they pay the studio, they pay you and you pay your rent with it. I think we can all agree that's how it works. You work at a studio, you subsist off my disposable income. Everything you do has the ultimate object of pleasing me enough to get me to PAY YOUR RENT.

Have you really not worked this out yet? Ask your boss!

 

[gregorio]

[1] Gregorio, here's a big piece of rock for your place of business:
[2] Any engineer who indiscriminately adds unwanted bottom - or anything else - to any project of MINE will kindly get his butt word-of-mouthed straight out of town!

1. Huh? Why would I need a rock to remind me of something I ALWAYS do anyway? My customer is the artist/rights holder!

2. No mastering engineer ever "indiscriminately adds unwanted bottom". If they did, they'd be instructed by the rights holder to remove it or simply be fired and the rights holder would go to a different mastering engineer! If the project is YOURS, you get to choose which mastering engineer you engage and specify what you do and do not require from the mastering process. How on earth is this all so difficult to understand, it requires no more than grade school level comprehension skills!!!

[1] Dude I'm the consumer, I pay the record company, they pay the studio, they pay you and you pay your rent with it.
[2] I think we can all agree that's how it works.
[3] You work at a studio, you subsist off my disposable income.
[4] Have you really not worked this out yet? Ask your boss!

1. Dude you are NOT "the consumer" you are "a potential consumer" and you are not even my potential consumer, you are the potential consumer of the rights holder! Do you pay for your recordings and then wait for weeks until the rights holder pays the studio to make the recording? No of course you don't, even a child knows that! You buy a recording which has already been made, AFTER the rights holder has ALREADY paid the studio/s. So the rights holder tells the studios/engineer what they want and pays them BEFORE any consumers have paid anything, you pay me nothing at all! It's the engineer's job to satisfy their customer, the rights holder (!) and it's up to the rights holder to specify what they want from the engineer to hopefully satisfy their target customers.

2. Even a school child would know enough not to agree with that! You think that Foxconn builds iPhones according to what some ignorant extremists on the internet posts or according to the requirements supplied by Apple? It's up to Apple to serve the consumer and it's up to Foxconn to serve their customer, which is Apple, NOT potentially you! Are you really so ignorant of the absolute basics of commerce and supply chains? This thread deals with quite a complex subject, no wonder it's not getting very far if there are participants who can't even understand the simplest facts which everyone else already knows!!

3. Obviously that's nonsense!

4. If you haven't worked out the above yet, maybe consider a refresher course at grade school or have a chat with your therapist!!

G

 

[tansand]

No, that's not going to do it for you. Mastering engineers and Foxconn workers are both getting their rent paid by me, the consumer, and my disposable income, via Apple and big fantasy studio. If either one doesn't do what they do to my satisfaction that will stop, and their rents won't get paid.

Will they?

By whom? Apple? Big fantasy studio? Lmao.

Really, ask your boss, I'm sure they'll be happy to clue you in.