Cowon S9 now has gapless!!!
Dec 15, 2009 at 7:29 PM Post #61 of 71
Cowon S9 32GB now ordered
smily_headphones1.gif


£206 inc. next day delivery.

Free Bodyguard leather case + free mini-speakers, though I already have a dock.

It is a Christmas present from my girlfriend though so I have to wait till the 25th to play with it.
 
May 4, 2010 at 3:28 AM Post #62 of 71
Pardon the thread grave digging, but I have a question, and I'd like to add my insight to the gapless and codecs topic in the context of PMPs.

Question: those of you with S9s, specifically with regard to MP3 gapless support, are you finding that gapless playback behaves seamlessly even with higher bitrate MP3s? (I'll address the reason for my question later.) I love the idea of FLAC, but being relatively new to the realm of high-quality portable audio, I don't have a player that supports it thus I have an extensive 320 kbps LAME library.

In response to a few folks on this forum, and in this thread (I'm too lazy to dig back and reference all the quotes.) who have asked about gapless, the benefits and, specifically, rock/metal and gapless, I'll say this: don't forget all those rock and progressive concept albums! Forefathers, Rush come to mind. And relative newcomers like Opeth write horribly beautiful albums that flow in concept and composition from one song to the next. Gaps are an icepick to the ear on these albums.

Now if you've made it this far (sorry) here are my thoughts on gapless and portables. Gapless playback requires intensive processing. In the beginning, I don't think the pioneers of compressed audio expected or thought it would expected of them to delivery audiophile approved media. Lossless formats do this (Remember, it's still compressed though even if it's just the superfluous bits that are removed.) but at a cost or costs. Some like FLAC aren't that widely supported, proprietary formats like WMA lossess are just that, proprietary. And these formates are process intensive. Relatively modern PCs and playback software have never had a problem processing high bitrate or lossless files and playing them gaplessly assuming the codec supported it.

Technology blazes on and enthusiasts and consumers demand more. Codecs improve and so do PMPs, but in the PMP market, the requirements and desires of audio enthusiasts lag behind. Why? A combination of proprietary curmudgeony, processing power, and majority consumer requirements. Microsoft develops WMA lossless so they aren't obligated (never mind what a small percentage of their customers want) to support FLAC. Which is, due to its enthusiast pedigree and the fact that it's open source, a much more efficient codec than WMA. I'm just picking on MS as an example. (I happen to own a Zune 80 v2) But when MS has its own lossless format, why embrace FLAC? Especially when your marketplace is all WMA? The sad part is, the high bitrate WMA format is so process intensive the Zune device can't play more than a couple songs before its buffer chokes, the processor and memory aren't powerful and fast enough, and the device code isn't efficient enough to read and cache the next song. And... you've got gap.

This brings me back to the reason I asked about S9 gapless playback and high bitrates. Who wants gapless on a portable if it only works on 128 kbps files? Not me. I want my cake and I want to eat it too.

My point is this: In order for us to enjoy gapless and lossless playback across a majority of PMP manufacturers, manufacturers must drop the pretense of proprietary codecs, support the "fringe" codecs that are growing in popularity (along with the idea of portable high fidelity) and portable technology must improve. Thank goodness that's inevitable.

We'll see it sooner or later, but right now the desires of the few are in direct contradiction with manufactures plans and who they perceive (Though I grudgingly admit it's more than perception. They do have market researchers after all.) to be their priority demographic. I guess we have to yell louder and at a higher bitrate.
wink.gif


-Ogre and out

P.S dfkt, if you're listening (and I know you always are) lemmeno about the S9 and high bitrate gapless playback, OK? Something tells me that because it has only flash memory as opposed to a HDD, it does fine. Could solid state drives be part of the answer?
 
May 4, 2010 at 3:34 AM Post #63 of 71
Short reply to your long post, Mediaogre:

I have the Cowon S9 and I have the 2.41 firmware, the first one with gapless playback for mp3 files. I have not yet experienced any breaks in the gapless playback. The mp3 tracks on my S9 are ranging from 192 to 320 CBR and but a majority is VBR (usually VBR V0). I do not have the highest bit rates, but quite high, and as I said the gapless playback has worked 100%. I am so happy with the 2.41 firmware and the gapless playback it provides so that I have not even bothered to update with later firmware updates.
 
May 4, 2010 at 3:39 AM Post #64 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danneq /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Short reply to your long post, Mediaogre:

I have the Cowon S9 and I have the 2.41 firmware, the first one with gapless playback for mp3 files. I have not yet experienced any breaks in the gapless playback. The mp3 tracks on my S9 are ranging from 192 to 320 CBR and but a majority is VBR (usually VBR V0). I do not have the highest bit rates, but quite high, and as I said the gapless playback has worked 100%. I am so happy with the 2.41 firmware and the gapless playback it provides so that I have not even bothered to update with later firmware updates.



Sorry about that. I'm passionate about the topic and I've done a lot of tests and troubleshooting.
angry_face.gif


Good to know! I'm probably a year away from a new player, but I making my cases.
 
May 4, 2010 at 3:48 AM Post #65 of 71
You need not be sorry, I just meant that my reply might be a bit too short and uninformative regarding your long post.

Anyway, you could always look at the J3 which seems to be a newer version of the S9 but with a MicroSD slot. If your new player is 1 year away, it might be a better alternative than the S9 since that one is already over 1 year old. The J3 should also have gapless playback. If it doesn`t have it from the box, it should get it through firmware updates. In 1 year the J3 will have matured as a player with firmware updates and custom GUI, and the S9 might already have been discontinued. But who knows about the future?
 
May 4, 2010 at 4:00 AM Post #66 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danneq /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You need not be sorry, I just meant that my reply might be a bit too short and uninformative regarding your long post.

Anyway, you could always look at the J3 which seems to be a newer version of the S9 but with a MicroSD slot. If your new player is 1 year away, it might be a better alternative than the S9 since that one is already over 1 year old. The J3 should also have gapless playback. If it doesn`t have it from the box, it should get it through firmware updates. In 1 year the J3 will have matured as a player with firmware updates and custom GUI, and the S9 might already have been discontinued. But who knows about the future?



Excellent advice with regard to tech maturation. I'll definitely look into the J3. I almost asked about MicroSD.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
May 4, 2010 at 1:22 PM Post #67 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mediaogre /img/forum/go_quote.gif
P.S dfkt, if you're listening (and I know you always are) lemmeno about the S9 and high bitrate gapless playback, OK? Something tells me that because it has only flash memory as opposed to a HDD, it does fine. Could solid state drives be part of the answer?


I'm mostly using LAME -v0 files on all my players. They all play perfectly fine and gapless on any of my players. Be it the rockboxed, prehistoric Cowon X5 HDD-player, be it the rockboxed Sansa Clips with their puny processors, be it the Cowon S9 or i9 - they all work perfectly well. On the newest Clip+ stock firmware Vorbis and FLAC play perfectly gapless as well, LAME encodes do have a tiny click between tracks, still.

I assume gapless doesn't work properly when one uses a sub-par MP3 codec, like FhG, Xing, and such - stuff that's used in iTunes, WMP, and other non-specialized, non-recommended rippers/encoders.
 
May 4, 2010 at 11:58 PM Post #68 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfkt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm mostly using LAME -v0 files on all my players. They all play perfectly fine and gapless on any of my players. Be it the rockboxed, prehistoric Cowon X5 HDD-player, be it the rockboxed Sansa Clips with their puny processors, be it the Cowon S9 or i9 - they all work perfectly well. On the newest Clip+ stock firmware Vorbis and FLAC play perfectly gapless as well, LAME encodes do have a tiny click between tracks, still.

I assume gapless doesn't work properly when one uses a sub-par MP3 codec, like FhG, Xing, and such - stuff that's used in iTunes, WMP, and other non-specialized, non-recommended rippers/encoders.



(Xing! Holy crap! I haven't thought about them for like 10 years.) I re-encoded my library a few months ago and now it's half-and-half WMA 320 and LAME v0 (and a few WMA lossless which I haven't bothered to downconvert). I'm veering off topic, but I'm beginning to see a possible connection. Do you have any hard disk-based players? Ironically, I think I may have hosed myself by getting a hard disk-based Zune. I thought the extra space would accommodate my lossless library only to find out the Zune 80 can't handle them.
 
May 5, 2010 at 11:43 AM Post #70 of 71
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mediaogre /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Do you have any hard disk-based players? Ironically, I think I may have hosed myself by getting a hard disk-based Zune. I thought the extra space would accommodate my lossless library only to find out the Zune 80 can't handle them.


Yeah, I've got the Cowon X5 HDD-player, and it's perfectly gapless with Rockbox. It doesn't matter if it's HDD or solid-state memory.

It's just a problem with Zunes, I've read that they broke gapless support with some update. Not that Microsoft gives a f$ck about their old players anymore, since they began to feverishly ape the iPod Touch...
wink.gif


The first Zune could probably get a Rockbox port rather easily. It was basically a Toshiba Gigabeat S (which is supported by Rockbox), hardware-wise, but the second is different hardware, and I don't know of any efforts to Rockbox it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top