[TheoS53]

Now, I'm a firm believer that there is no difference between the 2....since I cant hear any
 
Been looking to see if there actually is any difference. At first I looked at the FR I found no difference whatsoever. 
 
Pink is silver, black is copper.
 
Spaced out to see 3 tests were done for each
 

 
overlayed

 
So, no difference there...until I looked at the group delay. (this graph shows a total of 6 tests for each cable type)
 

That is a definite, consistent, repeatable difference in that region..and ONLY in that region...which seems to contradict the usual "silver is brighter" idea
 
 
I have no idea what group delay is, and if the differences are at all noticeable by the human ear..but there you go

 

[JaZZ]

  That is a definite, consistent, repeatable difference in that region..and ONLY in that region...which seems to contradict the usual "silver is brighter" idea
 
I have no idea what group delay is, and if the differences are at all noticeable by the human ear..but there you go

 
Group delay is phase distortion (see also Wikipedia). Best is none. So the silver cable in the graph is less accurate in this area and in this respect than the copper cable. I'm puzzled that there can be such a strong measurable effect in cables. Have you also measured other (copper, silver...) cables?
 
Group delay at low frequencies isn't necessarily a hint to accentuated bass or attenuated treble, it's just phase distortion.

 

[TheoS53]

   
Group delay is phase distortion (see also Wikipedia). Best is none. So the silver cable in the graph is less accurate in this area and in this respect than the copper cable. I'm puzzled that there can be such a strong measurable effect in cables. Have you also measured other (copper, silver...) cables?
 
Group delay at low frequencies isn't necessarily a hint to accentuated bass or attenuated treble, it's just phase distortion.

Thanks for the info.
 
Unfortunately I only have the silver cable that came with my X5 stacking kit, and the copper that came with the E12.
 
So, of course, this is not proof that there is a difference, as only 1 sample of each type could be tested..but it is interesting nonetheless 

 

[JaZZ]

Yes, interesting nonetheless. Thanks for your measurements!
 
I for one do hear distinct differences between different cables, particularly my HD 800 headphone cables: stock and Silver Dragon. Since the latter shows temporal interrupts (probably rather a short-circuit), I've lately been pushed to switch to the stock cable. Which actually has its own qualities, such as accuracy and a more intimate presentation than the more spectacular and sparkling Silver Dragon sound. Particularly since I use the puristic Chord Hugo as source and amp, the Silver Dragon appears to artificially enhance the treble, and this rather with its sparkle than with an increase – in fact it even sounds smoother than the stock cable to a degree which I would call smearing. It still sounds very good, but as it looks (sounds) now, I'm willing to think it's less accurate than the stock cable. Which on the other hand needs some fine equalization (thanks, X5!) to get rid of its slight inherent harshness.

 

[Dobrescu George]

i think that even if there is, you cannot hear it. the treshold for audible group delay at 20-500 hz should be around 3ms.
 
on the other hand, there is an actual chance that there will be an audible phase delay.
 
but, based on the group delay there should not be any kinds of audible difference.
 
you really got angry with them cables, right?

 

[JaZZ]

  you really got angry with them cables, right?

 
Is this addressed to me? – No, we're still friends.

 

[TheoS53]

Just did another test.
 
In my first test I tested the FR coming out of some IEMs.....in my last test I tested the cables directly from output to input. this time, there was no big difference like the first test. So, perhaps the reason people might "hear" a difference, is that the cables influence the drivers somewhat

 

[Steve Eddy]

Please change the subject of this thread.

You can't just take "a copper cable" and "a silver cable" and say you're measuring the difference between copper and silver.

The two cables would have to be identical in every way (length, wire gauge, geometry, dielectric materials, etc.) with the only difference being the metal the wires are made of.

And your group delay measurement is a total mess. Look how wildly the pink plot varies from test to test of the same cable. And I note that you are getting this result at around 50 Hz, which is the AC power line frequency in the UAE.

se

 

[TheoS53]

Please change the subject of this thread.

You can't just take "a copper cable" and "a silver cable" and say you're measuring the difference between copper and silver.

The two cables would have to be identical in every way (length, wire gauge, geometry, dielectric materials, etc.) with the only difference being the metal the wires are made of.

And your group delay measurement is a total mess. Look how wildly the pink plot varies from test to test of the same cable. And I note that you are getting this result at around 50 Hz, which is the AC power line frequency in the UAE.

se

agreed, there should be as few variables as possible. and as I've said before...this was only a single test..it's evidence, but by no means proof

 

[bfreedma]

  agreed, there should be as few variables as possible. and as I've said before...this was only a single test..it's evidence, but by no means proof

 
Without repeating what Steve posted, it really isn't evidence.  Not enough controls to make any conclusions (or assumptions) from the data.

 

[TheoS53]

   
Without repeating what Steve posted, it really isn't evidence.  Not enough controls to make any conclusions from the data.

95% agree with you. I'm still in the camp of "silver vs copper is BS"...but it is in fact evidence. Evidence that something has changed...not necessarily indicative of the cable vs cable, but the fact that I was able to repeat the results by only swapping cable does show some level of precision, but not necessarily accuracy 

 

[Steve Eddy]

95% agree with you. I'm still in the camp of "silver vs copper is BS"...but it is in fact evidence. Evidence that something has changed...not necessarily indicative of the cable vs cable, but the fact that I was able to repeat the results by only swapping cable does show some level of precision, but not necessarily accuracy 

Whatever the cause of the change, it's not due to copper vs. silver. The only difference between the two metals is a slight difference in conductivity (about 6%) which translates into a slight difference in simple resistance, all else being equal. Everything else is a matter of geometry.

Have you measured the resistance, capacitance and inductance of the two cables at all? That would be your starting point before plugging them into a set of IEMs and saying you're measuring the differences between copper and silver.

se

 

[TheoS53]

Whatever the cause of the change, it's not due to copper vs. silver. The only difference between the two metals is a slight difference in conductivity (about 6%) which translates into a slight difference in simple resistance, all else being equal. Everything else is a matter of geometry.

Have you measured the resistance, capacitance and inductance of the two cables at all? That would be your starting point before plugging them into a set of IEMs and saying you're measuring the differences between copper and silver.

se

nope, haven't measured that. All I've done so far is to put them between the audio rig and amp (into which the IEMs then plugged into), and the second test was again between the audio rig and amp, and from the amp directly back into the input of my audio rig (condenser mic calibration was removed)

 

[Steve Eddy]

nope, haven't measured that. All I've done so far is to put them between the audio rig and amp (into which the IEMs then plugged into), and the second test was again between the audio rig and amp, and from the amp directly back into the input of my audio rig (condenser mic calibration was removed)

Then I would work toward getting the cables characterized electrically before proceeding any further. You really would need that as a baseline. Then you can start speculating as to the cause of the results you're getting with your measurements.

se

 

[Speedskater]

Whatever the cause of the change, it's not due to copper vs. silver. The only difference between the two metals is a slight difference in conductivity (about 6%) which translates into a slight difference in simple resistance, all else being equal. Everything else is a matter of geometry.
se

That would mean that a 100 inch long copper cable and a 106 inch long silver cable are about the same.