[pigmode]

Quote:

Originally posted by tvhead Pigmode, Are you saying that these little cups decide where to put the instruments each time it plays a recording?

No, but they influence how you percieve them. Okay, I think I overstated my case. Of course the information that was mastered onto each stereo track is of primary importance. For headphones, I think the actual design of each phone would be next in the order of importance. This would include the particular design of the drivers, the design of the housing, and the materials used as well. That would be why there is a Grado sound, an AKG sound, and a Sennheiser sound.

I think Headwise still has some interesting treatises on headphone theory that might be of interest to you..

 

[Tim D]

Imaging or soundstage is a lot of things.

The DIFFERENCE between the L/R signal should provide spatial cues because sound enters the left and right mics at slightly different times and altered differently by the surroundings and path they took to reach the destination. However if the L/R playback transducers are not as well matched...some of the difference is due to inaccuracy, and hence spatial imaging can blur or be less precise. Tonal balance will also insure proper depth perception.

Speedy transients, accuracy, etc is also important...but lets just say theres a great deal of complex factors, enough to say that yes there can be better than V6 in terms of imaging or headstage, even though the V6 has incredible accuracy for the price. I wouldn't call the V6 tiny in soundstage, but there are some that are a bit better...and unfortunately probably with a higher price tag. On the otherhand, I wouldn't consider it such a weakness on the V6 part enough that I could guarantee that you'd be absolutely blown away with the soundstage of too many other headphones. Ety's or Stax's might do it however.

And of course, if the recording engineer overprocesses everything, you can leave the recording entirely bereft of any real spatial cues so that it doesn't really matter.

 

[tvhead]

Tim D,

I appreciate the time you are spending to answer my questions.. You have really cleared up a lot of things.


Pigmode,

Are there any headphones that don't put their own spin on the music? Something that replays the music the way it was meant to be heard. I guess it's kind of like watching movies in letterbox. I like to watch the director and the cinematographer's original vision and not the formatted for tv version..

 

[skippy]

the thing is, often times music may be mastered to sound good over cheapo boomboxes. so even if you used the same equipment that was used in the studio, it wasn't even optomised for that equipment.

btw, i've read somewhere that akg's were the most popular studio cans.

soundstage may also refer to the distance too. for example, it's often said that senns sound like you're in the audience and grado's sound like you're on stage. this is usually do to the frequency response. it's been said that grados have an emphasized and peaky upper mid/lower treble region which may account for the forward nature, and that senns like the 580/600 have a mellow midrange which can make them sound more distant.

also i've read somewhere that there is a bit of natural crossfeed going on with open cans. i suppose that this could account for a 'wide soundstage.' though i find this explanation to be a bit weak, unless you listen to music at apheared levels.

i think that the distance the cans are from your ears plays a large factor in headphone soundstage. with circumaural phones, the driver tends to be placed further from the ear than with intraural or supraural cans. i'd imagine that this would allow the headphone to engage the listener's ears (and thus the listeners HRTF's more) and would make it sound wider, ass opposed to a supraural or intraural phone which just bypasses the listeners ears.

take for instance the akg k1000. it's got the widest soundstage i've heard. it's actually open enough to have some natural x-feed going, and the drivers are placed very far from the ears.

 

[tvhead]

Well, does this mean the Ety's have the worst sound stage of all, since they are sealed and way inside the ear?

 

[Xander]

I'm affraid the distance of the drivers from your head has little affect on the soundstage width. Pull your headphones outward a little, and tell me if the soundstage width increases afterwards.

I've never heard the Etys, but I think it's safe to say that theyre extremely accurate headphones, with excellent dynamics, which is probably why they have the best soundstage of any "headphone".

The K1000s are heard to have an EXTREMELY flat response, which can also be attributed to their wide-as-hell beautiful soundstage. These are ear-speakers, though.

The K401/501 are both very neutral, dynamic headphones, the drivers arent placed farther from the ear more so then other headphones, yet they have a very wide, precise soundstage on proper equipment. On the wrong amp, it's very shallow and ghostly, probably because they reveal the equipments distortions so easily.

 

[MacDEF]

tvhead, just to address one of your comments: you seem to be thinking of SACD as merely providing multi-channel sound. Actually, most SACD audio is not multi-channel; it's remastered two-channel audio encoded to SACD. And yes, those SACDs do sound significantly better on headphones than the non-SACD counterparts

 

[skippy]

Quote:

I'm affraid the distance of the drivers from your head has little affect on the soundstage width. Pull your headphones outward a little, and tell me if the soundstage width increases afterwards.

my comment was not meant to be an all inclusive explanation. just perhaps one aspect that may contribute to perception of soundstage. and by the way: yes, with certain cans the soundstage does sound wider when placed further from the ear. for example, i perceive my porta pros to have a wider soundstage when placed further from the ears. my grado's too.

 

[Xander]

Weird.. When I do this they just sound more distant, but the soundstage doesnt seem to widen. It makes sense, though..

 

[Joe Bloggs]

I think when binaural recordings and / or Dolby Headphone become widely available all this would become a moot point

I'd just like to chip in and say that I've never experienced any soundstage to speak of, on headphones *or* speakers, except in a 3D headphone demo clip

Everything else is a poor excuse for 'soundstage'

 

[Xander]

Wow, Joe.. You owe it to yourself to listen to some REAL headphones AND speakers.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Er, Gluegun... it's not that I can't hear any soundstage at all in normal recordings... it's just that they can't compare to properly 3D processed clips (and, by extension, binaural CDs and Dolby Headphone processed clips, I suppose)

But I suppose you're right about the speakers

 

[Xander]

Gluegun? Where? LOL Joe.. Go to bed. You're tired.

 

[DarkAngel]

This has been discussed on many threads but here we go again.
Headphones are extremely good at highly detailed music presentation and R/L channel seperation imaging. However because of the position of the speaker/listener with headphones
they are not good at producing the massive 3D soundstage
that full size speakers with listener in near field position can acheive, it really is no contest to me. You must have the physical
seperation/space to develop a realistic/believable 3D soundstage (using normal CDs). Headphones sound very artificial to me with 2D flat soundstage vs good stereo.

Headphone amp designers realize this and try to compensate with various crossfeed filters, spatial expanders, surround sound etc. Some headphones like Sony CD3000 even angle the driver differently to more closely replicate stereo speakers.

I have not heard a binaural recording with headphones so I can't comment how it compares to good stereo, although I am sure it is better than standard CD for 3D soundstage.

Also don't recording studios use expensive monitor speakers like BK801 to make sound quality decisions and final product analysis? Interesting to note that to this day some of the most 3D recordings are classical music from the 1950s! Making a great recording is almost as much an art as an engineering exercise.

 

[pigmode]

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkAngel Also don't recording studios use expensive monitor speakers...

That's what I thought...