[zeplin]

smokey, it ain't just you man. you've seen everyone post here about the 650's jump up (IMHO) in quality. to me, Senn lover or not, this is no coincidence. i can only imagine what the 650/Zu combo running out of a Blockhead sounds like

 

[dd3mon]

Another great review Tube, enjoyed the read as always. Surprised on your take of the Joe Grado phones as "off" from neutral, that won't be a popular position. However, taken from the perspective of HD600 as approximate "neutral" or "ideal" - your thoughts on the HP-1/2's sound about right.

I'm very much looking forward to your KGSS / Omega II impressions. It seems after this comparison of the titans, the Stax setup (with KGSS or better yet Blue Hawaii) is your final frontier. Nik seems to have been around the (headphone) world and back again, sharing most of your views on these phones; he has settled on the Stax. Many who own a good Omega II setup claim it to be the best thing out there. I really hope that's true, 'cause a KGSS & Omega II are a lot cheaper than an R10 or Blockhead system.

-dd3mon

 

[Mastergill]

Great reading man!

Bizarre that you don't like that much HD-650. Like you i was a dedicated fan of 600s and could have lived with them 5 more years...but the 650s are simply amazing and improve in all the way the 600s sound.
Man the MIDRANGE!...the voices, the clarity, the 3D sounstage, the 'grease' removed to the bass, even more speaker like than 600s IMHO.
Sorry for ranting again with my Manley, but you need this kind of gear to appreciate 650s to the top.
Tuberoller try to audition the combo Manley 300B + HD-650...so i will not feel preaching alone in the desert

 

[JaZZ]

Tuberoller...

...really great review! Who has ever the chance to audition all those top headphones together! I just think six headphones at once would be too much for me, too much input and too many variables to process. I understand that in such a case you need a reference point (the HD 600) -- and that may be the crucial point, insofar as it implies the tendency to rate all deviations from it as «colorations». I wonder about your description of the HP-2 as «upsetting the balance» and «very colored», whereas for most people it represents even kind of reference for a flat frequency response and neutral sound. I never heard it myself, so can't judge it at all, and I certainly don't exclude that you may be right -- at least to a certain degree.

Quote:

The HD650 do these same things well but require you to change the cable, use your best amp and your very best source to hear any "improvements" that may or may not be present. There are some differences but they are subtle and hidden in the details of recordings that you know very well. There might be a drum brush that now sounds like a brush instead of the static you once heard. You might hear your favorite singer lick her lips between notes or you might notice that Pat Metheny uses a wooden pick. Or you might not hear a damn thing. I was hard pressed to define what I was hearing when I auditioned the HD650 and only amps like the Stealth and Max really showed me what was possible. In the end I was impressed with the 650 as a stand-alone product but not with the HD650 as an improvement over the HD600.

The other point I have some trouble with is that you barely heard any significant difference between HD 600 and HD 650. That's something I simply can't reproduce. Should I blame it on the wide variety of sonic signatures you had to deal with, so the difference between the two relatives have virtually disappeared? To me the differences are very clear; the HD 650 is a totally different headphone to my ears. And especially the progress is too obvious to be ignored. The difference is not so much in the balance, although there is a clear change, but rather in the increased resolution as well as the now omnipresent smoothness and absence of resonance effects -- in terms of transparency and detail the HD 650 represents a huge step forward. Not to forget the expanded low-frequency response!

In an early stage of my becoming familiar with the HD 650 I was often tempted to constantly compare it with its predecessor. In those cases I had some trouble to rate the HD 650 as better balanced -- there seemed to be some bite and aggressiveness lost, the sound was a bit too polite and rounded, and even some of the HD 600's magic and intimacy was gone. (BTW, I like your description of the HD 600's sound!) But whenever I was staying with the HD 650 without comparing, there was nothing missing at all, and the sonic advantages were very obvious: much cleaner and deeper bass, much higher resolution, a sweet and smooth treble to fall in love with... and no punch and impact missing, quite the opposite. The HD 650 sounds more interesting, more fun, more realistic...

I don't think a cable replacement is a must to enjoy the sound and experience the superiority over its nevertheless very good sounding predecessor. But once you know how it sounds with the better cable, there's no going back...

 

[Rob N]

The "Leatherhead" should massacre the other phones with a chainsaw...no,hold on that's something else

 

[markl]

Damn, sounds like you had some fun there tuberoller!
Quote:

The R10 certainly have a sonic signature and could never be considered neutral by any objective listener but they do some things like no other phones and those things are what make the R10 a truly one-of-a-kind product in the world of audio. I would never use phones like the R10 as references because they would condition my ears and make me hate everything else. This is the type of headphone that makes you come around to the way it presents music and leaves you wondering if everything else is doing it right.

That last line definitely describes me.

After the R10, no other headphone sounds right. They make *music*, they don't sound like headphones to me. I don't find them colored at all, just "right".

 

[kartik]

Tuberoller,
Sad to hear that the RS-1s didn't make it to the top. Still, hope survives when company is true. The cables I sent you include an amp adaptor with a banana to 1/4" silver cable (or copper for that matter). The RS-1 would be an interesting target with a real honest-to-God power amp, (not just a head amp), but make sure it isn't bridged. I never imagined what the SR-325 could sound like till I heard it through that via a Unison Research Teatro. I think the Grados are harder to drive than they seem and their sound is really dependent on the source. The RS-1/RA-1 combo is a case in point.
regards
Kartik

 

[Sean H]

Ditto JaZZ's post word for word.

 

[Tuberoller]

To clarify a bit, I think the HD650 are terrific phones and I would certainly recommend them to anyone but I do not believe them to be the huge leap in performance beyond the HD600 that some claim them to be. Rated as a stand-alone product and not as an "upgrade" over the HD600, the HD650 would certainly be my reference phone and I still may consider them for that role.

When I listen to headphones one of my goals is to reproduce, as accurately as possible,the sound of a great speaker system. Other headphone users may have different goals when enjoying headphones and I understand that but, to my ears,Senn HD600/650 sound more like speakers than any other phone I have yet used. When I listen to my reference combo of HD600 and Headroom Max(using crossfeed),I am sitting in the sweetspot of a perfectly sized,acoustically optimized listening room enjoying a great loudspeaker system. This headphone and amp combo may not reproduce that sound perfectly,but it's as close as I've heard. Of course,greater detail and better headphone-style soundstaging is available but at the expense of realism and credibility of timbre. If I were an exclusive headphone user then phones like the R10 and HP1 might appeal to me more,but being the fan of great loudspeaker systems that I am,I can't say that either of these phones sound anything like loudspeakers,in any real way. I have heard many,many headphone systems and most of them sound like.....headphone systems. Allow me to state this a different way, When I complain about certain sources and say things like "The soundstage is artificial" I'm usually referring to the sonics in a loudspeaker system. The fact that most headphone systems do a very poor job of reproducing the sound of loudspeakers is why many of these same sources will sound fine in those headphone systems. Example: I have always hated the Cary CD players but have heard them sound very good in a few Headphone systems. Cary CD players sound the same on my reference headphone system as they do on in a good loudspeaker system. I hope I clarified things in a way that allows you guys to understand how I listen.

 

[Geek]

Tuberoller, thanks for perhaps one of the most useful reviews ever to have been posted on head-fi. This is basically a survey of almost all of the really great high end dynamic cans being judged by a very experienced individual, and will, unlike many other reviews, allow one to reach a reference point in regards to all of these different opinions: whereas most reviews address one or two headphones, this one addresses boatloads!

The blockhead powering HD650s is just ridiculous. A real wallet drainer if I've ever seen one myself. That's my dream headphone/amp combo: one ridiculously good soundstage and unbelievable imaging with all of the strengths of the sennheiser line perfected. Pair that baby with a sweet vinyl rig and you're in headphone heaven.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[mjg]

Hi tuberoller,

I liked your review. I see your point about the senneheisers, but certainly when price doesn't become an issue, the hype subsides, people might opt for it over the 600, just because it is indeed better (by what margin, is subjective).

I got a great deal on them, love the way they sound, and that's why i'm happy with 'em. And as you said, with all the goodies in the world, it's ironic you go back to square 1. In the end, you like what you like plain and simple (or simply can't justify the means to go with the r10s, which is fine)

I won't start any flamebate here, good review and quite jealous!!

Wow I can't belive those leatherheads were a dissapointment... I can't say I'm all that suprised, being that I can't imagine what wrapped leather can do to enhance sound. (Then again, wood in r10s makes them magical, go figure)

anyways, thanks.

 

[Tomcat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller ATH- L3000 Leatherhead- (...) I listen with every amp and all my sources and they still make me feel like I'm not getting My(or Jonnie's) money's worth. There is a suprising lack of detail and the whole two or three bottom octaves of bass seemed stuck together with thick,nasty glue. (..)

Tuberoller,

That's a very fine review. It must have been great to be faced with a task like this: evaluating almost all high-end headphones there are. Cool.

I don't share your view that headphones ought to sound like speakers (I'd want both to sound like music), but it's an interesting perspective, and, I'd guess, a quite common one among headphone listeners.

I'm especially curious about the L3000. Can you relate your impressions to previous impressions about other W series headphones from AT? W100, W2002, W1000? Did you have a chance to hear them? Did they sound similarly thick and glued, lacking detail to your ears? Thanks.

 

[Music Fanatic]

Quote:

Originally posted by bangraman Somehow I had a feeling about the L3000 though, that the same chassis / chamber as the W1000/W2002 couldn't be improved to such dramatic levels.

Bangraman, I can hardly believe you posted this when elsewhere you have defended the possibility of improvement and have criticized other for making assumptions about the L3000. What happened to your philosophy about not commenting on equipment unless you've heard it?

 

[Zanth]

Thanks for the comparison tuberoller.

I am definitely in the camp of: "I want my headphones to sound like headphones and my speakers to sound likes speakers."

That said...it is very good for a writer to note their ideas on sound reproduction and from what perspective they are approaching the review from. This will give a sense of direction to the reader as is evident from the replies to tubes impressions.

I agreed with much of Tuberoller's remarks about the phones I've heard (all but the AT). I can understand the love folks have for the HD600's and HD650's and they certianly sound nice with the Max so I can only imagine what they sound like with a Blockhead. The RS-1's really do love the RA-1. I've stated as much about a zillion times as have a bunch of others. It's one of those magical realities that comes at a fairly decent price. $950 brand new full retail. Not too bad I would say!

The HP-1000's need mucho current so if the amps can't provide that...then well...they will be lack-luster. I've never heard this hump...but then I've not heard them with any of those amps. I will say they are coloured if one uses the Senns as a reference. Though as Jazz pointed out...if this is the case, the Senns could be the coloured phone. It's really what one wants to achieve.

For me, I don't aspire to reproduce loudspeaker sound through headphones. The reason? It will never happen. Why? Because headphones are headphone and loudspeakers are loudspeakers. Two different devices for reproducing sound. So what I go after is the best sound reproduction I can afford. headphones will never be able to match speakers in visceral response nor in soundstaging. It is an impossibility. What headphones can and DO do is surpass speakers or at least match them in linearity, range, articulation, instrumental separation, tone, speed...I could go on. Headphones do music well. In fact, in some aspects, they do it the best. I want to make my system do music the best it can in the only way it will ever be able to do it.

The R10's are seductive and have its many many followers. I don't think I will ever get used to the closed headphone sound as a reference and thus I pass on the R10's until I hit my first million

The HP-1000's don't have the same wide soundstage but what one gets is more realistic (no bowl shaped note decline) but for many its not involving enough, not their thing...though it too has its followers. So many cults so many followers so many headphones to choose from. I think this is what is great. Everyone has a goal and more often than not there is a headphone/amp combo that can take a person to their goal. I just hope that the folks who want their headphones to sound like speakers are never disappointed their headphones will never take them to their goal. I know tuberoller loves his music any way he can get it so I am not worried about him in the least....but for some others...I hope they can live with defeat.

 

[Welly Wu]

Hey Tuberoller:

You just triggered me to spend more cash sometime down the road to get the RA-1 + Grado Signature Series ICs. Thanks. A lot.