[V-DiV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find it interesting, if you read all the posts in this thread, no one is defending SP. No one said the OP was wrong. Almost all the discussion centered on the CI amp itself or its discrete op amp topology. The only post questioning the OP's assertion about the CI's goodness was me .... and that had nothing to do with SP. .... I broke up the SP negativity

sacd lover, I'm not sure why you are being so defensive about SP. I haven't gone back to read all from the beginning today, but the way I read this discussion is that Singlepower is the top of the heap, the gleaming perfection that all others would hope to attain. Of course that comes at a price. Most here were simply interested in understanding how good this little-known amp might be. The OP initially framed the discussion in comparison with the ideal standard, but SP wasn't the main interest here.
As someone new to this hobby, and a recent VHP-2 owner I would like to believe that I made a smart buy for my modest investment and that I have a decent amp. I would also like to believe that I haven't already achieved the best sound I am likely to hear but that I may someday be able to behold that ideal reality as exempified by SP. I hope you are not feeling bad

 

[V-DiV]

Oops, problems editing post on iPod Touch - continuing previous post...

sacd lover, I hope you are not just feeling bad that you have spent so much money for a SP and now a much less expensive amp is said to possibly approach a similar sq. Rather than striking out at perceived slights of the king, how about describe the ethereal qualities of the SP that the VHP-2 must aspire to, to truly stand with the king. I for one would be interested since I've not heard a high-end tube amp.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif About this CIAudio opamp vs. discrete thing, here is a review of CIAudio VHP-1, earlier version of VHP-2. Stereophile: Channel Islands Audio VHP•1 headphone amplifier Here they say about this current feedback thing: So, is the current feedback chip something different from standard opamp, or are they talking gibberish, both CIAudio and Stereophile?

Audiophile reviews can be really interesting when they're not dripping with pretense. This is one of the former.

The first really interesting thing is the revelation that at the core of the VHP is a circuit designed for studio use. I left the audiophile world for a couple of decades, but never left pro audio. Studio equipment always chases neutrality, not tone, and is often substantially less expensive than audiophile consumer gear. In other words, we are often willing to pay a premium for components that color the sound of our recordings.

And what is "dynamic contrast?" He doesn't seem to want to come right out and declare a broader dynamic range for the power supply upgrade, but instead he creates a new term, then describes it as more nothing when there is nothing, more something when there is something. Which would describe a lower noise floor and higher volume, though he says in another part of the interview that both the wall wart and the PSU are silent (no surprise with HD600s), and surely he wasn't just running the amp louder with the PSU and failed to volume-match. Was he?

Like I said at the beginning, audiophile reviews can be really interesting. And amusing. And this one is pretty straightforward. I've seen some that read more like the pages of a stream-of-consciousness novel than the critical evaluation of hardware.

I suspect that what the power supply upgrade does is provide better control of uneven loads. This would primarily manifest itself in the bass and would be a pretty moot point when using phones with a flat resistance curve. GreggF - what phones were you using when you compared the psu with the wall wart?

Tim

 

[greggf]

I used - hastily and willy-nilly

- all that I have on hand at the moment:

K701
K601
HD600 (my faves, I guess)
HD650
DT770
D5000

((some of these are out the door soon - and I may try Koss electrostats again))

I noticed nothing different at all on the Senns, running CDs of light rock/pop (Orbison, Vega), soundtrack (Casino Royale - original), jazz (Herbie Mann, Cal Tjader, Getz, Desmond, Guaraldi), some Copland, some Nico, "Bug Music"/Don Byron, a couple three other things.

On the same music, a case could be made that the bass was tighter on the DT770 Pro 80 with the VAC rather than the stock walwart. I may or may not have been able to tell in a blind test; more likely if at higher volume. The AKGs may have been a tad livelier/more dynamic through the VAC, although their bass seemed the same, oddly enough. The Denons didn't change, as best I can tell; I hoped I'd hear something, given their ample bass.

In fact, it's the lack of change in the Denon's bass that makes it clear that the VAC-1 tightens the DT770's bass by contrast. The VHP-2 works well with the Beyerdynamics in general.

I guess - guess - I'd buy the VAC again, if I had to do it over. If the VAC works subtle wonders on the DT770 and on the AKGs, my theory would be that it would, over time, become apparent that it helps Senns etc., too. (Or not.)

I think relaxed listening over a month or three is the way to do stuff like this, not whipping CDs and headphones on and off, at unmatched volume levels, over the course of one evening.

I admire reviewers - it's not as easy as it seems.

At least if they do it right.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

K701 K601 HD600 (my faves, I guess) HD650 DT770 D5000

I love my 580s as well, though they sometimes seem a bit too polite and recessed, right where critical vocals hit the midrange. It puts me on the hunt for alternatives - something that would drive well with a portable, for versatility, and a more forward midrange, maybe a bit more air in the highs, without sacrificing too much in smooth or slam. Based on what I read around these parts, I'm currently leaning toward Denons or Beyers (2000/770 Pro 80).

Any thoughts on that?

Quote:

I think relaxed listening over a month or three is the way to do stuff like this, not whipping CDs and headphones on and off, at unmatched volume levels, over the course of one evening.

I think you're probably right. Then again, relaxed listening over a month or three gives us a month or three to hear what we want to hear. I'm an equal opportunity skeptic - even skeptical of myself.

Tim

PS: Is that man in your avatar ever going to find his clothes?

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-DiV /img/forum/go_quote.gif sacd lover, I'm not sure why you are being so defensive about SP. I haven't gone back to read all from the beginning today, but the way I read this discussion is that Singlepower is the top of the heap, the gleaming perfection that all others would hope to attain. Of course that comes at a price. Most here were simply interested in understanding how good this little-known amp might be. The OP initially framed the discussion in comparison with the ideal standard, but SP wasn't the main interest here. As someone new to this hobby, and a recent VHP-2 owner I would like to believe that I made a smart buy for my modest investment and that I have a decent amp. I would also like to believe that I haven't already achieved the best sound I am likely to hear but that I may someday be able to behold that ideal reality as exempified by SP. I hope you are not feeling bad

Maybe you should go back and read the thread. I am not being defensive. But, I get tired of people jumping on any SP referance and spinning the referance into a negative.

I posted my friends experience with the CI which was in opposition to the OP's opinion. I used the comparison that my friend preferred a Lite to the CI .... and SP 's entry level amp the PPX3-6CG7 to both. From posting that info my post was interpreted to somehow be protecting or defending SP when what I was declaring is the CI just may not be the giant killer the OP implies. I included the SP referance because of the contrast in opinion. One feels the CI was nearly as good as an expensive MPX3 while another preferred the least expensive SP made to the CI. If I had left out that part of the story and just said the Lite was deemed clearly superior to the CI by my friend .... would there be a claim I was protecting Headamp?

Never did I say the CI was an inferior product or bad sounding. Never did I say the OP's opinion was wrong ... it was an opinion. I have never heard the amp. But, someones opinion I do respect, and who normally raves about CI products and services, found the amp a letdown compared to his experience with other entry level products.

The lite and the PPX3 are both excellent amps at their price points so the fact he preferred them both over the CI is still no slam to the CI. But, the comparison did reflect, contrary to the OP's opinion and to what others want to believe, that the CI probably will not challenge the better amps available (from whatever manufacturer not just SP) in terms of sound quality.

Finally, as someone new to the hobby, you should do a search if you think I am feeling bad about owning a SP.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif About this CIAudio opamp vs. discrete thing, here is a review of CIAudio VHP-1, earlier version of VHP-2. Stereophile: Channel Islands Audio VHP•1 headphone amplifier Here they say about this current feedback thing: So, is the current feedback chip something different from standard opamp, or are they talking gibberish, both CIAudio and Stereophile?

IMO it is gibberish. The description clearly states the amp uses a surface mount chip. A chip is not a discrete device.

The only difference is again clearly stated .... the heart of the VHP•1 is a surface-mount IC current-feedback amplifier instead of an op-amp, usually a voltage-feedback device. So the CI chip amplifies current rather than voltage. Because the chip amplifies current they want to act like the chip is something new and different from an op amp.

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is where we disagree. This is audio we're talking about - circuits and valves and chips and transformers. There is no "reality" but the degree to which the outgoing signal reflects the incoming one, ie: "Neutral." When someone tells you they're not going for neutrality, but for reality, that is code for creating a signature sound that they like better than the uncolored reproduction of the recorded material.

aah, there is serious fault with that.

The term "neutrality" can apply even to so-called "colored" amps. Plot their frequency response, flat from 20hz to 20khz, into 32 ohms... and yet they can have this sound some call colored, and is substantially different from a different amp posting similar specifications.

I agree with SACD's impressions of "reality" VS flat neutrality. There are plenty of reference flat amps with truly nominal measurable distortions that NEVER get you into the music, and never trick the ear into thinking it is not listening to reproduced sound. I am of the impression (certainly applies to myself) that we here listen to music primarily for enjoyment, not analytical ear-grating. perhaps im wrong. this will no doubt brin out the dull, rolled off highs crowd, and i disagree with them. my tube amps dont have this fault, but lack the fault of a dry, harsh raspy sound.

I think that the high-end designers are DONE and bored designing stuff that measures perfectly but sounds like garbage. They have learned how to make trade offs in their amps that imporve SQ greatly, and that trading a little distortion for a little sound quality is not a bad idea. This is why they are a high end designer, and not simply a scope-jockey (gasp). They have an idea of what good music sounds like and how to get it out of their devices, regardless of whether they are transistors or tubes.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif IMO it is gibberish. The description clearly states the amp uses a surface mount chip. A chip is not a discrete device. The only difference is again clearly stated .... the heart of the VHP•1 is a surface-mount IC current-feedback amplifier instead of an op-amp, usually a voltage-feedback device. So the CI chip amplifies current rather than voltage. Because the chip amplifies current they want to act like the chip is something new and different from an op amp.

Aaaaa!!!! NOW I see.

Well, no wonder none of my headphones have seemed underpowered. All headphones that I've had with VHP2 have been more current hungry than voltage, except perhaps K601. But all of them sound great, and most of all the amplifier itself sounds pretty much like "nothing" compared to my earlier amplifiers. Just the sound of source and headphones. Its still sort of dissapointing, I have always wanted discrete amplifier, but im still surprised that opamp amplifier can sounds (or more like lacks own "sound") this good.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

aah, there is serious fault with that. The term "neutrality" can apply even to so-called "colored" amps. Plot their frequency response, flat from 20hz to 20khz, into 32 ohms... and yet they can have this sound some call colored, and is substantially different from a different amp posting similar specifications.

Good example for me was my previous amp Meier Corda HA2-MkII SE. Neutral to the core as far as my ears could tell, but it also had a slight dryness which didnt really grow on me on longer term. VERY good amplifier otherwise.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

The term "neutrality" can apply even to so-called "colored" amps.

Perhaps, but only if it is applied incorrectly. These are words. They have meaning. In this context, neutral is an adjective, an ideal even, that means that the sound of the complete source (not just its measured frequency-response, to address your scopehead remark), in all its nuance, is unaltered by the amplifier. A wire with gain. It is an ideal that probably cannot be reached. It is an ideal that we may not even always want to reach, given the sound of some recordings, some sources. But given the same recording, the same source, the closer two amplifiers come to the ideal, the more they will sound like the unaltered source, the more they will sound alike. There really isn't anything to argue with there. It is what it is. If they're closer to the source, they're closer to each other.

And yes, I agree that many designers - and not just the better ones - are building color into their amps. I just happen to think that the best amps tend to have very subtle color (closer to the source, closer to each other...). And I'm glad, because once you build it into an amp, it colors every component and every recording, for better or for worse.

Oh yeah, and once we start choosing components for their color, and embracing their various distortions, the "superiority" of one brand or model or topology becomes a completely moot point. It all becomes subjective; choose your color. Which is cool, but we may as well throw out all measurement (it seems we have already begun) and all discussion of signal quality and simply say "Personally, I like X."

Period. Which would be remarkably healthy. But it would leave us with nothing to argue about, and audiophile discussion boards would soon go the way of the dinosaurs

Tim

 

[Gradofan2]

Help me understand something...

... please tell me... how anyone knows what their "source" sounds like... if... they're listening to it through some amp?

Obviously... you have no idea what your source sounds like (by itself), unless you can listen to it by itself (isolated).

I suppose you could listen to some sources through their unamplified output (or should I say their internal amplification)... and... compare that to the sound out of any combination of amps.

Is that what you mean you're doing?

Otherwise... just exactly how do you know what your source sounds like... and by extension... that any amp sounds like your source???

Of course you can compare the sounds of various sources with one amp (amp is constant)... or... you can compare the sounds of amps with one source (source is constant)... but... just how do you know what your source sounds like... except as amplified through an amp - which may alter the sound from the inherent sound of the source???

I must say... this entire discussion seems a bit ridiculous to me - because there seem to be no absolutes - just personal preferences regarding the sound produced by a rather complex combination of variables.

So... why not just acknowledge that. The fact that you personally like the sound of one amp, or another, or one source or another, or on set of phones or another... or one combination, or another. I really don't believe anyone can state definitively that one amp, or source, or set of phones, or combination is "better" than any other - they can state they personally prefer one, or another.

So... just give it up!

 

[greggf]

sacd lover,

I think the problem may be that the VHP-2 truly is a giant-killer. It has gotten me to stop expensive rotation of equipment, to stop and take an extended listen.

Perhaps your friend doesn't hear so well? A lot of mine don't. That's okay. It isn't a reflection on you.

I think those of us who like the CIA are enthusiastic, but not in a FOTM way, in a kind of shocked way. We've found something good, almost against our will.

I know how you must feel. I, too, want a gorgeous-looking, over-the-top tube amp. But why, when unpretentious, minimal little boxes get us most of the way there?

I've had good ss - PS Audio GCHA, Lehmann Black Cube Linear, Naim Headline 2 - and the VHP-2 is better. Smoother, more powerful, more dynamic.

I've had an Eddie Current Zana Duex - in the same neighborhood as some of your Singlepowers.

The VHP-2 isn't as good as the Zana, but, arrrrrgh, living with the Zana - the heat, heat, heat, in my black-walled listening room, in the summer - was like living with a bi-polar religious nut on crack. I'm delighted that the CIA gets me so much of that high-end sound in one or two tiny, cold-running, fist-sized, inexpensive, quickly and easily-obtainable, reliable packages from a real company that acts like a real business.

The opamp vs. discrete thing is as stale as you say the tube vs. ss thing is: any combo of any of those things can sound good, depending. And, again, CIA isn't trumpeting discreteness; they seem to be simply passing on what Texas Instruments itself says about the part.

tim,

I'm as stuck in terms of the HD600 as you are. It beats back all challengers, repeatedly, and yet it still makes me wanting more. I've tried everything, and want what you seem to want.

The Denons might work. The D5000 comes close to giving me what the 600 lacks.

I'd be hesitant to suggest the DT770. They're polarizing, and arguably the least neutral. I like them. You might. Or not.

I may take a try at the Koss ESP-950. If that fails, I may go spartan, and ascetically live with just the HD600 for awhile. Or else try to love the HD650's syrup.

It may be the best we or anyone else can do.

 

[greggf]

The naked guy in the avatar is Herbie Mann. It was 1970. Everybody's judgment was impaired.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

I must say... this entire discussion seems a bit ridiculous to me - because there seem to be no absolutes - just personal preferences regarding the sound produced by a rather complex combinations of variables. So... why not just acknowledge that.

Acknowledged.

Quote:

'm as stuck in terms of the HD600 as you are. It beats back all challengers, repeatedly, and yet it still makes me wanting more. I've tried everything, and want what you seem to want. The Denons might work. The D5000 comes close to giving me what the 600 lacks. I'd be hesitant to suggest the DT770. They're polarizing, and arguably the least neutral. I like them. You might. Or not.

Yeah. I think maybe I'll order in a pair of D2000 from someplace where I can return them, pick up a pair of DT770 Pro 80s at the local Guitar Center, and throw back the losers. I'd just go for Grados - I know they'll be different from the Senns and midrange-forward, but I can't wear the things. The ear-smashing kills me. Others have suggested the K601. But they're inefficient.

Quote:

The naked guy in the avatar is Herbie Mann. It was 1970. Everybody's judgment was impaired.

Mine certainly was.

Tim