Chord Mojo(1) DAC-amp ☆★►FAQ in 3rd post!◄★☆

[Mython]

This one time....

...at Band camp..?


Glad it started working.

In the meantime, I really hope no one else upgrades downgrades to the latest version of iOS, until the DAC fucntionality is fixed.

 

[x RELIC x]

I'll integrate your remarks.
If you've a laptop with Li-Ion cells and use it always connected to the recharge source, after some time you'll find that battery capacity will be fairly lower.
This is NOT NECESSARILY a sign that cells are fried and in fact is perfectly expected.
What has to be done -in Mojo's case- is:
1)Purchase an "USB Current and Voltage Tester"
2)Connect to i.e. the USB socket of your choice (capable of at least 1A output)
3)Connect you USB to Micro USB cable, USB side to the tester and Micro USB side to Mojo
4)Max chargin' amperage should be 0.97A (blue light) and then 0.14A (White light) untill fully charged
5)Do one chargin' cycle with Mojo in off state.
6)Use Mojo until it switches off (end of battery juice) and repeat step 5).
7)Do steps 5) and 6) at least 4 times.

If things do NOT improve Mojo had been used unproperly in that ways (possibly concurringly):
1)Always in playing and recharging at same time with battery over the below mentioned 20-40 °C.
2)Despite what seller says Mojo had been used in a way that the max batts cycles count had been triggered: i.e. on Li-Ion 500 full discharge cycles had been done. That is from 100% to below 25%. Depending of power requirements this could have well been done. After that cycle number you're normally left with 50% of nominal battery capacity. In that case the seller is a plain lier.

As a side note: top notch rechargeable Li-Ion batts like Sony and Panasonic (and all flavours of Lithium based cells) clearly indicate the max cycles with reference being made to a certain operational temperature, which normally is 20-40 °C . Some particular chemistries allow to operate at extended ranges. Go beyond that and the battery capacity will be lowered as well.

This link might be interesting for everyone here.

The bottom line: I seriously hope that Mojo has NOT been equipped with LiCoO2 cells.

I’m not referencing charge cycles or heat, but the fact that keeping a lithium battery above 4.10V/cel for an extended time can be as/more stressful than high temperature and can be more detrimental to the capacity and total lifespan than charge cycles. The information is in the battery university site you linked, but in a different article. I’ve linked to it more times than I can count on this thread, but I’m rather over the repetition of doing it yet again.

The Mojo’s battery is not lithium cobalt, but rather lithium polymer and for all charge considerations reacts the same as lithium ion. The short story is that, for any device powered by lithium ion and lithium polymer, do not leave the device on a constant charge for extended periods (24/7 for weeks/months) unless the charging scheme does not top up continuously above 4.10V/cel. Modern laptops and the Hugo2 account for this but the Mojo does not. Almost all issues I’ve read about Mojo’s battery (and I’ve read every post in this thread) are from users who have happened to also leave Mojo plugged in 24/7, which seems far too coincidental to dismiss.

 

[zettelsm]

...at Band camp..?


Glad it started working.

In the meantime, I really hope no one else upgrades downgrades to the latest version of iOS, until the DAC fucntionality is fixed.

Just another data point — Upgraded to the latest version of iOS on my iPhone X and it works just fine with Apple Camera Connection Kit and Roon.

Steve Z

 

[daberti]

I’m not referencing charge cycles or heat, but the fact that keeping a lithium battery above 4.10V/cel for an extended time can be as/more stressful than high temperature and can be more detrimental to the capacity and total lifespan than charge cycles. The information is in the battery university site you linked, but in a different article. I’ve linked to it more times than I can count on this thread, but I’m rather over the repetition of doing it yet again.

The Mojo’s battery is not lithium cobalt, but rather lithium polymer and for all charge considerations reacts the same as lithium ion. The short story is that, for any device powered by lithium ion and lithium polymer, do not leave the device on a constant charge for extended periods (24/7 for weeks/months) unless the charging scheme does not top up continuously above 4.10V/cel. Modern laptops and the Hugo2 account for this but the Mojo does not. Almost all issues I’ve read about Mojo’s battery (and I’ve read every post in this thread) are from users who have happened to also leave Mojo plugged in 24/7, which seems far too coincidental to dismiss.

We said exactly the same thing, in fact in my original post contains the following....."If you've a laptop with Li-Ion cells and use it always connected to the recharge source, after some time you'll find that battery capacity will be fairly lower.". That is: battery indicator will show i.e. "92% and not charging".
Some very good brands like MSI will give you a dedicated Battery Application to reset it, next step being shutting down the laptop and doing a charging cycle with the laptop still off.

I just added Cycles because that was my issue. In fact what happened to myself with my brand new Mojo follows: I charged it for some ten hours with requested amperage fullfilled but I never saw the white light.
Then I practiced the very same above mentioned checkpoints solving the issue.


Li-polymer can be built on many chemistries, the likes of Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese, and is not considered a unique battery chemistry. The majority of Li-polymer packs are cobalt based (which includes NMC, which are safer than LCO though), but other active materials may also be added.

Li-polymer is unique in that a micro porous electrolyte replaces the traditional porous separator. Li-polymer offers slightly higher specific energy and can be made thinner than conventional Li-Ion and not of cylindrical shape.

The only CHEMISTRY which when topped scores 4.2V AND does NOT contain Cobalt at all is Lithium Manganese Oxide: LiMn2O4 cathode. graphite anode . Short form: LMO or Li-manganese. Flashlight nuts know them as IMR. It withstands high amperages but has lower capacity than LCO or NMC (cobalt based and 4.2V).

 

[daberti]

Just another data point — Upgraded to the latest version of iOS on my iPhone X and it works just fine with Apple Camera Connection Kit and Roon.

Steve Z

Let's make a database:
11.3 and iPhone X=> Mojo works
11.3 and iPhone 6+=> Mojo works

 

[daberti]

So:

zettelsm: iPhone X, iOS 11.3=> Mojo works

daberti: iPhone 6 Plus, iOS 11.3=> Mojo works

DawidW: iPhone 6 S, iOS 11.3=> Mojo NOT recognized

Please add your own

 

[Adu]

So:

zettelsm: iPhone X, iOS 11.3=> Mojo works

daberti: iPhone 6 Plus, iOS 11.3=> Mojo works

DawidW: iPhone 6 S, iOS 11.3=> Mojo NOT recognized

Please add your own

I can confirm that my iPhone 6S (Model A1633) with Onkyo HF Player, iOS 11.3 >> Mojo WORKS

 

[lwells]

Let's make a database:
11.3 and iPhone X=> Mojo works
11.3 and iPhone 6+=> Mojo works

I think people should specify which cck too.

Mine works with the 3.0 cck. The 2.0 one mysteriously stopped working recently.


zettelsm: iPhone X, iOS 11.3=> Mojo works
daberti: iPhone 6 Plus, iOS 11.3=> Mojo works
lwells: iPhone 6 (CCK 3.0), iOS 11.3=> Mojo works
lwells: iPhone 6 (CCK 2.0), iOS 11.3=> Mojo NOT recognized
DawidW: iPhone 6 S, iOS 11.3=> Mojo NOT recognized
Please add your own

 

[lwells]

Li-polymer is unique in that a micro porous electrolyte replaces the traditional porous separator. Li-polymer offers slightly higher specific energy and can be made thinner than conventional Li-Ion and not of cylindrical shaThe only CHEMISTRY which when topped scores 4.2V AND does NOT contain Cobalt at all is Lithium Manganese Oxide: LiMn2O4 cathode. graphite anode . Short form: LMO or Li-manganese. Flashlight nuts know them as IMR. It withstands high amperages but has lower capacity than LCO or NMC (cobalt based and 4.2V).

The Mojo’s battery is not lithium cobalt, but rather lithium polymer and for all charge considerations reacts the same as lithium ion. The short story is that, for any device powered by lithium ion and lithium polymer, do not leave the device on a constant charge for extended periods (24/7 for weeks/months) unless the charging scheme does not top up continuously above 4.10V/cel. Modern laptops and the Hugo2 account for this but the Mojo does not. Almost all issues I’ve read about Mojo’s battery (and I’ve read every post in this thread) are from users who have happened to also leave Mojo plugged in 24/7, which seems far too coincidental to dismiss.

Regarding "LiPO":
Lithium polymer does not always mean polymer electrolyte. Apple calls their cells Lithium Polymer even though they use a traditional carbonate electrolyte. "LiPo" has become sort of a trade name for hobbyist cells and such as well. I think this might be for shipping or export classification reasons. When I produce a lithium ion electrodes (a metal foil, active material, binder, etc) and ship it, I need to classify the material type for the US Dept. of Transportation (DOT). The DOT categorizes these as 'plastic films' because enough of the electrode content is the binder material. Similarly, I think that when these hobbyist cells are exported, they are allowed to be classified as "polymer" because such a small fraction of the cell is liquid electrolyte. However, when you post mortem them, you will find they are indeed traditional liquid electrolyte cells (usually with a Li[Ni0.8Co.02]O2 or LCO cathode). Actual lithium polymer cells barely exist in the wild. The only ones I can think of are for the Ballore Blue car in France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolloré_Bluecar).

Or maybe it's not about export at all. Maybe this is how smaller battery manufactures hose companies like Chord by making them think they are getting something special. If somebody wants to send me their mojo cells, I'll answer that question.

Regarding real Polymer cells:
There are 'real' polymer cells. There are two classifications, dry and wet. Dry polymer cells must have their temperature elevated to around 65*C before a glassy transition of the polymer allows for any ionic conductive. So, right off the bat, we know this is not what is in Mojo. For 'wet' polymer cells, a mixture of ethylene carbonate and dimethyl carbonate is added to the polymer to allow for some room temperature conductivity. These are traditional liquid electrolytes. The ONLY reason for using a polymer electrolyte (wet or dry) is to enable a lithium metal anode.

Li-polymer offers a slightly higher specific energy and can be made thinner....

ehhhhh.
Slightly higher gravimetical energy density. Volumetrically it's the same in practice, if not worse. The polymer itself, cuts into the volumetric energy density. The electrodes must be produced with the polymer 'encapsulating' the active material to have sufficient ion transport. This can make the cathode twice as thick as a traditional lithium ion cell cathode for a given areal coating weight. The electrolyte layer itself (as you mentioned replaces the traditional PE/PP/PE separator) cannot be coated as thin as a separator. Current high energy separators are around 10-13 microns thin; further diluting the energy density.

Secondly, actual polymer cells use a lithium metal (LiM) anode. Because there is no electrolyte reductively stable against LiM, excess is used in hopes of giving the cells a somewhat respectable calendar life because you are constantly consuming the LiM. By excess, I'm talking like 3-4x of lithium metal. This seriously takes a chunk out of the theoretical volumetric energy density. The only reason for using a polymer electrolyte is to enable the use of a LiM anode. I think this Jeff Dahn presentation gives a great breakdown of energy density impacts when using LiM.
(http://www.almaden.ibm.com/institut...esentations/JeffDahn-AlmadenInstitute2009.pdf)

Lastly, there are no commercial viable polymer electrolytes are that oxidatively stable above around 3.9v vs. LiM. (3.83 vs. graphite). The electrolyte in the Ballore cells is poly ethylene oxide based. Ether groups start to oxide around 3.9V. This, among other issues, forces 'real' polymer cells to use cathodes that have a redox at lower potentials. LFP is usually used for this reason. LFP's average potential vs. LiM on charge is around 3.5V. With the reduced cell potential, you are losing even more cell energy density relative to what you could do with a traditional liquid electrolyte.

The short story is that, for any device powered by lithium ion and lithium polymer, do not leave the device on a constant charge for extended periods (24/7 for weeks/months) unless the charging scheme does not top up continuously above 4.10V/cel.

4.2V vs. graphite is not nearly as much of a threat to the life of LiMn2O4 as elevated temperature. Depending on the cathode material, electrolyte oxidation does not start becoming measurable until just above 4.2V. However, this destruction pales in comparison to the transition metal dissolution that occurs in some cathode materials at elevated temperatures. LMO is about the worst for this. @25:00 there is a great breakdown of coulombic inefficiencies as a function of temperature for multiple cathode chemistries.

Cells with LMO cathodes really need active thermal management to have a decent calendar life and we all know that the case of the Mojo reaches at least 35*C during charging. I'm assuming this is because of the charging circuit, but I am no electrical engineer. The temperature at the cell is higher than that 35*C you see on the case.

In short, LMO would be a horrible choice for a cathode in the Mojo.

 

[Adu]

I think people should specify which cck too.

Mine works with the 3.0 cck. The 2.0 one mysteriously stopped working recently.

11.3 iPhone 6

Mine is Apple CCK Lightning to USB Camera Adapter and it’s working fine.

 

[lwells]

Mine is Apple CCK Lightning to USB Camera Adapter and it’s working fine.

There are two types.

USB 3.0

USB 2.0

 

[x RELIC x]

Regarding "LiPO":
Lithium polymer does not always mean polymer electrolyte. Apple calls their cells Lithium Polymer even though they use a traditional carbonate electrolyte. "LiPo" has become sort of a trade name for hobbyist cells and such as well. I think this might be for shipping or export classification reasons. When I produce a lithium ion electrode (a metal foil, active material, binder, etc) and ship it, I need to classify the material type for the US Dept. of Transportation (DOT). The DOT categorizes these as 'plastic films' because enough of the electrode content is the binder material. Similarly, I think that when these hobbyist cells are exported, they are allowed to be classified as "polymer" because such a small fraction of the cell is liquid electrolyte. However, when you post mortem them, you will find they are indeed traditional liquid electrolyte cells (usually with a Li[Ni0.8Co.02]O2 or LCO cathode). Actual lithium polymer cells barely exist in the wild. The only ones I can think of are for the Ballore Blue car in France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolloré_Bluecar).

Regarding real Polymer cells:
There are 'real' polymer cells. There are two classifications, dry and wet. Dry polymer cells must have their temperature elevated to around 65*C before a glassy transition of the polymer allows for any ionic conductive. So, right off the bat, we know this is not what is in Mojo. For 'wet' polymer cells, a mixture of ethylene carbonate and dimethyl carbonate is added to the polymer to allow for some room temperature conductivity. These are traditional liquid electrolytes. The ONLY reason for using a polymer electrolyte (wet or dry) is to enable a lithium metal anode.



ehhhhh.
Slightly higher gravimetical energy density. Volumetrically it's the same in practice, if not worse. The polymer itself, cuts into the volumetric energy density. The electrolytes must be produced with the polymer 'encapsulating' the active material to have sufficient ion transport. This can make the cathode twice as thick as a traditional lithium ion cell cathode for a given areal coating weight. The electrolyte layer itself (as you mentioned replaces the traditional PE/PP/PE separator) cannot be coated as thin as a separator. Current high energy separators are around 10-13 microns thin; further diluting the energy density.

Secondly, actual polymer cells use a lithium metal (LiM) anode. Because there is no electrolyte reductively stable against LiM, excess is used in hopes of giving the cells a somewhat respectable calendar life because you are constantly consuming the LiM. By excess, I'm talking like 3-4x of lithium metal. This seriously takes a chunk out of the theoretical volumetric energy density. The only reason for using a polymer electrolyte is to enable the use of a LiM anode. I think this Jeff Dahn presentation gives a great breakdown of energy density impacts when using LiM.
(http://www.almaden.ibm.com/institut...esentations/JeffDahn-AlmadenInstitute2009.pdf)

Lastly, there are no commercial viable polymer electrolytes are that oxidatively stable above around 3.9v vs. LiM. (3.83 vs. graphite). The electrolyte in the Ballore cells is poly ethylene oxide based. Ether groups start to oxide around 3.9V. This forces 'real' polymer cells to use cathodes that have a redox at lower potentials. LFP is usually used for this reason. LFP's average potential vs. LiM on charge is around 3.5V. With the reduced cell potential, you are losing even more cell energy density relative to what you could do with a traditional liquid electrolyte.



4.2V vs. graphite is not nearly as much of a threat to the life of LiMn2O4 as elevated temperature. Depending on the cathode material, electrolyte oxidation does not start becoming measurable until just above 4.2V. However, this destruction pales in comparison to the transition metal dissolution that occurs in some cathode materials at elevated temperatures. LMO is about the worst for this. @25:00 there is a great breakdown of coulombic inefficiencies as a function of temperature for multiple cathode chemistries.

Cells with LMO cathodes really need active thermal management to have a decent calendar life and we all know that the case of the Mojo reaches at least 35*C during charging. I'm assuming this is because of the charging circuit, but I am no electrical engineer. The temperature at the cell is higher than that 35*C you see on the case.

In short, LMO would be a horrible choice for a cathode in the Mojo.

Interesting info.

One of your quote manipulations quotes me when it was actually @daberti who said that li-poly has a ‘higher specific energy and made thinner’. Sorry, I didn’t say that.

I’m no battery chemist so any information posted about such is interesting, but I won’t presume to guess the exact makeup of the Mojo’s battery. All I know is Chord has stated it’s battery is made specifically for Mojo and that it’s lithium polymer. I have no clue if this is for marketing, transportation regulations, or other. The rest is academic and not really useful for this thread because it’s pretty much guesswork unless Chord releases specifics, but like I said it is an interesting topic (to me).

Specifically for this thread and Mojo owners, I've observed that most posts I’ve read regarding battery failure / reduced life / low maximum charge / low run time are also when the Mojo is plugged-in 24/7. I’ve personally experienced this with other batteries for other audio devices and laptops in the past so I’m making a suggestion based on lithium charging recommendations from battery information sources, my experience, and my observations that it may help others.

I just hope people using their Mojo would take 0.5 seconds to unplug it when not using it and at full charge to help prolong the battery life.

I have no further comment other than this.

 

[lwells]

Interesting info.

One of your quote manipulations quotes me when it was actually @daberti who said that li-poly has a ‘higher specific energy and made thinner’. Sorry, I didn’t say that.

Oh! I'm sorry about that. I'll fix it.

I have no clue if this is for marketing, transportation regulations, or other. The rest is academic and not really useful for this thread because it’s pretty much guesswork unless Chord releases specifics....

I have no further comment other than this.

Agreed... back to my music

 

[Adu]

There are two types.

USB 3.0

USB 2.0

Mine is USB 2.0

 

[turkayguner]

iPad mini 4 => iOS 11.3 => CCK USB2 (firmware version 1.0.0, hardware version 1.0.0, model number A1440) => Mojo (with QR code)

It works flawlessly for whom interested.