[Meridian7]

This person makes a list of valid reasons to why this could be the case
https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/blogs/news/can-a-mojo2-sound-better-than-a-dave-yes-heres-how

Omg, what a setup. Thanks for the link, will take more time for this article.
There are a gazillion filters there, more is better?
When I bought Sbooster with its own filter, it said to monitor for adding extra mains filters, some might make things worse in combo.
My rebelamp did not benefit from mains filter, I tend to believe it was better off.
A filter is a filter? I've few euro ones from amazon, but also expensive Puritan boxes.
I just hope he didn't overdo things (in good fate) at the expense of Dave.

 

[Triode User]

This person makes a list of valid reasons to why this could be the case
https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/blogs/news/can-a-mojo2-sound-better-than-a-dave-yes-heres-how

Hmmn, well I think it might be one of those situations where one has to be there and hear it to assess whether it is really ‘better’ and ‘more transparent’. I have many times concluded differently after hearing other things that have been lauded as being ‘better’.

Indeed when listening to buffering caps in the Dave with an external LPS some cap options were put to me as sounding ‘better’ than others but I concluded they actually sounded worse. (As it happens with further extended listening my view as to which caps sounded better prevailed).

One needs to be careful in these matters.

 

[Meridian7]

I almost sold a Rebelamp to keep the Burson 3xp. Now I'm opposite. Imho we kind of float with dynamic perception and time reveals the prevailing median. Or just stop listening and binge asr kool-aid.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

Hmmn, well I think it might be one of those situations where one has to be there and hear it to assess whether it is really ‘better’ and ‘more transparent’. I have many times concluded differently after hearing other things that have been lauded as being ‘better’.

Indeed when listening to buffering caps in the Dave with an external LPS some cap options were put to me as sounding ‘better’ than others but I concluded they actually sounded worse. (As it happens with further extended listening my view as to which caps sounded better prevailed).

One needs to be careful in these matters.

Very true, I know someone that keeps spinning his wheels getting new equipment over and over, he thinks what he hears is "better" but I have told him over 100 times that he's hearing differences and our brain gets excited by these differences. He usually gets rid of the equipment 1 or 2 months later and keeps the madness going

 

[Reactcore]

Indeed when listening to buffering caps in the Dave with an external LPS some cap options were put to me as sounding ‘better’ than others but I concluded they actually sounded worse. (As it happens with further extended listening my view as to which caps sounded better prevailed).

One needs to be careful in these matters.

Indeed its what i noticed too that different caps sound different.. or worse.. as did the Sj cap board..until i started playing with resistors in series and single cap setup in Daves 12v regs outputs instead of double.

It opened my ears and things fell into place making me understand what really is happening and why multiple caps in parallel with tracks or wiring between them worsen things.

When the herd walks one way.. this sheep goes opposite.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

Indeed its what i noticed too that different caps sound different.. or worse.. as did the Sj cap board..until i started playing with resistors in series and single cap setup in Daves 12v regs outputs instead of double.

It opened my ears and things fell into place making me understand what really is happening and why multiple caps in parallel with tracks or wiring between them worsen things.

When the herd walks one way.. this sheep goes opposite.

Excellent.

 

[muski]

That is interesting.
If not for DAVE's headphone driving capabilities (I am using it in a full system), would you say MS+Mojo2 could give MS+DAVE run for its money?

I have both, and was switching back and forth between them tonight (even before reading this thread).

I am shocked at how much I enjoy the MS + Mojo 2. It's an incredibly fun rig that, on a pure "listening joy level", does give the DAVE a run for its money.

As I just posted on the Mojo 2 thread, I connect the M Scaler to Mojo 2 optically via a Bix-powered OPTO-DX, which eliminates any possibility of RF noise (the DAVE's Achille's heel). The MS+Mojo 2 reproduces quiet, delicate music incredibly well—I'd say at DAVE levels. But when things get louder and busier, the DAVE clearly trumps the Mojo 2. Unsurprisingly, the DAVE has oomph/attack/authority that the Mojo 2 can't match (as @Reactcore points out).

For me the Mojo 2 has strengthened the case for adding a Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 to the DAVE. For some really fine details, like room reflections, I swear Mojo 2 exceeds DAVE, and I suspect the difference is DAVE's RF issue. If the ARC6 can solve that, wring the last bit of resolution out of the DAVE to Mojo 2 levels, while adding even more authority, well...

 

[chelseafc]

I have both, and was switching back and forth between them tonight (even before reading this thread).

I am shocked at how much I enjoy the MS + Mojo 2. It's an incredibly fun rig that, on a pure "listening joy level", does give the DAVE a run for its money.

As I just posted on the Mojo 2 thread, I connect the M Scaler to Mojo 2 optically via a Bix-powered OPTO-DX, which eliminates any possibility of RF noise (the DAVE's Achille's heel). The MS+Mojo 2 reproduces quiet, delicate music incredibly well—I'd say at DAVE levels. But when things get louder and busier, the DAVE clearly trumps the Mojo 2. Unsurprisingly, the DAVE has oomph/attack/authority that the Mojo 2 can't match (as @Reactcore points out).

For me the Mojo 2 has strengthened the case for adding a Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC4 to the DAVE. For some really fine details, like room reflections, I swear Mojo 2 exceeds DAVE, and I suspect the difference is DAVE's RF issue. If the ARC6 can solve that, wring the last bit of resolution out of the DAVE to Mojo 2 levels, while adding even more authority, well...

Thanks for sharing.
Are you listening through headphones?

 

[Meridian7]

So to compare them one needs an amp to deal with the limited power output capability of mojo. Not all amps respect the transients the same, so the choice of amp used could rise or numb the most profound advantage of Dave, the transients. I've found Rebelamp to respect this quality very well, though my experience with amps is rather limited.

 

[muski]

Thanks for sharing.
Are you listening through headphones?

Yes, headphones. Focal Stellia and Utopia.

 

[eric1974]

As we learn more about Rob's upcoming advancements beyond the Dave/M Scaler, I thought it would be interesting to see what Google's latest AI, Gemini, had to say about it . I've attached the conversation in pdf format if anyone is interested! Even if the AI is off a bit, it still confirms what I've suspected as a listener with both speakers and headphones: Unless you're listening to the Dave/M Scaler with extremely sensitive planar magnetic/electrostat headphones, you're probably missing much of what the Dave provides. Alas, while I enjoy my stereo speakers and my Sony Z1R headphones, neither is probably taking full advantage. And with an even more advanced Choral DAC or "Ultimate" dac coming up, I would be very interested in Rob's or anyone else's perspectives. Do we even know if any equipment can keep up with Rob's state of the art, now or in the future?

 

[number1sixerfan]

Indeed its what i noticed too that different caps sound different.. or worse.. as did the Sj cap board..until i started playing with resistors in series and single cap setup in Daves 12v regs outputs instead of double.

It opened my ears and things fell into place making me understand what really is happening and why multiple caps in parallel with tracks or wiring between them worsen things.

When the herd walks one way.. this sheep goes opposite.

One question here my friend. You use the Dave direct headphone out after all of the upgrades correct? Have you done any comparisons with adding a high quality, transparent amp behind the Dave? I'm wondering if there may still be significant added benefit if one is already using a high quality amp behind the Dave, which may erode gain from an external PSU/cap mods. I have no clue personally, but just curious as I use amps behind the DAVE in all cases, and that won't change given my stat system primarily, but even for dynamics, I'd prefer to use an amp.

 

[Reactcore]

One question here my friend. You use the Dave direct headphone out after all of the upgrades correct? Have you done any comparisons with adding a high quality, transparent amp behind the Dave? I'm wondering if there may still be significant added benefit if one is already using a high quality amp behind the Dave, which may erode gain from an external PSU/cap mods. I have no clue personally, but just curious as I use amps behind the DAVE in all cases, and that won't change given my stat system primarily, but even for dynamics, I'd prefer to use an amp.

Its not easy to explain to others without understanding how alternating electric voltage and currents behave as a driving feed for a load. But ill try to tell how i see it.

Imo the main reasons why an external amp is giving a benefit with Dave are:

1) Someone likes the amp's own tonality

This is not me as i dont like the original created analog signal being altered (coloured) in any way and here i stick with what Rob also pointed, that any extra added circuit being electronics or cables degrades transparency.
In essence one is placing an amp after an amp which for dynamic or planar headphones shouldnt be needed.


2) It takes the load off the DAC

Here is what the true purpose of any amp is.
The amp takes the alternating (music modulated) voltage from the DAC while exposing a very light load to it by means of having a very high input impedance (10.000 to 100.000 ohm) then adds current to its own connected load.. in this case headphones.

So to the headphones it passes this voltage which is about the same level in volts as Dave provides to its output.
But the headphone's load (low impedance 16 to 600 ohm) is feed with current from the amps own power section which is alot more capable and stable than Dave's supply.
And mostly an amp incorporates heavy caps close to its output stage to create its current buffer. This is why external amps can drive headphones better with oomph and authority giving energy and dynamics.

But.. i dont want the extra circuit with its transparency degrading effect so i decided to beef up Dave's own amp section by providing it with buffering close to its amp section so i get both advantages.

Although an amp draws very little current.. it still poses a load to Dave making a stack of Dave and amp benefit from my tweaks.

But Dave driving headhones direct will always trump it for me.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Its not easy to explain to others without understanding how alternating electric voltage and currents behave as a driving feed for a load. But ill try to tell how i see it.

Imo the main reasons why an external amp is giving a benefit with Dave are:

1) Someone likes the amp's own tonality

This is not me as i dont like the original created analog signal being altered (coloured) in any way and here i stick with what Rob also pointed, that any extra added circuit being electronics or cables degrades transparency.
In essence one is placing an amp after an amp which for dynamic or planar headphones shouldnt be needed.


2) It takes the load off the DAC

Here is what the true purpose of any amp is.
The amp takes the alternating (music modulated) voltage from the DAC while exposing a very light load to it by means of having a very high input impedance (10.000 to 100.000 ohm) then adds current to its own connected load.. in this case headphones.

So to the headphones it passes this voltage which is about the same level in volts as Dave provides to its output.
But the headphone's load (low impedance 16 to 600 ohm) is feed with current from the amps own power section which is alot more capable and stable than Dave's supply.
And mostly an amp incorporates heavy caps close to its output stage to create its current buffer. This is why external amps can drive headphones better with oomph and authority giving energy and dynamics.

But.. i dont want the extra circuit with its transparency degrading effect so i decided to beef up Dave's own amp section by providing it with buffering close to its amp section so i get both advantages.

Although an amp draws very little current.. it still poses a load to Dave making a stack of Dave and amp benefit from my tweaks.

But Dave driving headhones direct will always trump it for me.

Thank you. This was really helpful and really clear. I almost messaged you, but figured a post from your POV would be very helpful to all interested on the topic.

For me, like yourself, I'm largely not interested in an amp adding color in my main chain. As a secondary chain it can be interesting as a contrast, but my primary goal is transparency, resolution and everything you mentioned in #2, and ultimately optimal amplification for the headphones. Thanks again for the explanation, and it's good to hear that there's still ample benefit when using an amp.

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Its not easy to explain to others without understanding how alternating electric voltage and currents behave as a driving feed for a load. But ill try to tell how i see it.

Imo the main reasons why an external amp is giving a benefit with Dave are:

1) Someone likes the amp's own tonality

This is not me as i dont like the original created analog signal being altered (coloured) in any way and here i stick with what Rob also pointed, that any extra added circuit being electronics or cables degrades transparency.
In essence one is placing an amp after an amp which for dynamic or planar headphones shouldnt be needed.


2) It takes the load off the DAC

Here is what the true purpose of any amp is.
The amp takes the alternating (music modulated) voltage from the DAC while exposing a very light load to it by means of having a very high input impedance (10.000 to 100.000 ohm) then adds current to its own connected load.. in this case headphones.

So to the headphones it passes this voltage which is about the same level in volts as Dave provides to its output.
But the headphone's load (low impedance 16 to 600 ohm) is feed with current from the amps own power section which is alot more capable and stable than Dave's supply.
And mostly an amp incorporates heavy caps close to its output stage to create its current buffer. This is why external amps can drive headphones better with oomph and authority giving energy and dynamics.

But.. i dont want the extra circuit with its transparency degrading effect so i decided to beef up Dave's own amp section by providing it with buffering close to its amp section so i get both advantages.

Although an amp draws very little current.. it still poses a load to Dave making a stack of Dave and amp benefit from my tweaks.

But Dave driving headhones direct will always trump it for me.

I agree with you about preferring driving headphones direct from the Dave. When I first got it, I read lots about how people don't like the Dave's amp. So I got a few headphone amps to try, including the Chord Anni and the Zähl HM-1, and like you, I came away in all cases preferring the direct out of Dave sound.

I have some very hard-to-drive headphones (though, not the Susvaras...) and have never heard an issue. Can you explain to me what the problem people hear is? Is it tight bass transients? Breaking up?