CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Jul 25, 2022 at 5:51 AM Post #21,691 of 25,883
Speaking as someone who doesn't give a hoot about test results I find the onslaught of the this test by ASR spamming Facebook and elsewhere pointless.
At some point I will get hold of a DAVE and try it in my system if it doesn't wow me I'll send it back and get a refund, one point of interest to me is the secondhand value of the DAVE, two on e-bay that I've tracked fetched £6100 and £6700 and they both sold so at that price point people want them there is absolutely no doubt about that fact.
As far as my test goes I have several go-to tracks that I test all my equipment on, this may be worshiping the Anti-Christ as far as people who are impressed by test graphs go but I'll just repeat it. My band used to play Texas Flood by SRV and I know the bass line very well having played it a 1000 times. My test has always been to see if I can distinguish it being played in E-flat and I can follow the individual notes. So I've got used to the way my Qutest portrays this track in my system and I'll certainly post my experience of the DAVE in my system.
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 5:53 AM Post #21,692 of 25,883
If the analogue noise levels are higher than digital noise, it's a bit of a waste of time talking about the digital noise isn't it?
Not so sure about that. Some time ago I posted a video of Martin Mallinson from ESS and he was talking their own research that showed people are sensitive to varying noise and can indeed hear what's hidden in the noise. Here is the video, It's interesting to watch.
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 5:57 AM Post #21,693 of 25,883
Which measurements specifically, that you did, have Dave performing highest?

Look at jitter here and look at the price of the DAC (TOSlink and USB same - there is no jitter):

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-do100-review-stereo-dac.34198/
That DAC seems to have very low jitter, but still has jitter components visible.
Additionally, one issue with Amir's method for testing jitter is that he uses the audio-precision 'high performance sine analyzer' when doing so.

In my experience, I've found that using this can alter the apparent level of jitter components close to the fundamental and more accurate results are obtained when not using it. So unfortunately his results can't be directly compared to my own.

The high performance sine analyzer is a notch filter intended to eliminate harmonic distortion but it is not ideal or at the least unreliable for evaluating things like jitter.

My test on the DAVE showed nothing above -160dB and at that point it was limited by the analog noise floor. (Though it's also worth noting that directly equating dB levels on a J-test to other distortion tests is not something that should be done. The J-test is a clever way to show a time-domain issue on a frequency-domain plot and is NOT intended to be directly equated to audibility thresholds of other types of distortion).

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Jul 25, 2022 at 6:04 AM Post #21,695 of 25,883
If the analogue noise levels are higher than digital noise, it's a bit of a waste of time talking about the digital noise isn't it?

What benefit?

Analogue output is most important ?
Because two things are already known:

- Correlated error is in most circumstances more audible/problematic than random error
- You can still hear things below a noise floor.

The room you're in for example might have a noise floor of lets say 60dB, but you can still hear if something very quietly squeaks or makes a sound at 50dB.
In fact we do this all the time in measurements. In the jitter plot for the DAC you linked for example, the noise floor of that DAC is about -122dB, but we can still use lots of FFT gain to see the jitter components below the noise floor at -150dB.


I think he's updated his jitter testing:



Optical (no jitter)


He's still using the notch filter. You can see this because of the fact that the noise floor rises around the fundamental tone, whereas in mine it's flat. The main difference seems to be that he's swapped from using a 256k FFT to a 128k FFT.

To be clear: There is no 'standard' here. This is just me and Amir doing things differently. Sometimes tests are just done differently and it's important to know when that happens and what the limitations are to avoid making unfair comparisons.
I'm sure he has a reason for using the HPSA on this test, but I personally have it disabled because it only ever made things more inconsistent in my own testing and wasn't designed for use in this sort of test where the components you're evaluating might be close enough to be affected by the notch
 
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Jul 25, 2022 at 7:02 AM Post #21,696 of 25,883
I can't remember if there ever was a BT function envisioned for Dave as it's a feature I would have strongly reacted against. And I can't remember why an SMA connector was put down on the prototype; but I left the SMA in in case I wanted to add another clock or have a port for testing purposes. Remember Dave took nearly 3 years to develop with plenty of prototypes on the way. You always add just in case extra functionality, with plenty of redundant bit switches and spare IO.



I honestly don't know why other reviewers do not get the same results as I do - and every Dave I have tested measured the same. I once was very perplexed with the Stereophile review of Dave, as some measurements looked fatally wrong. When I got the unit back it measured perfectly, with a DR of 127dB (A Wt with the reference set to the max 1% OP level of 6.75v) and the measurement of 16 bit levels absolutely perfect. John Atkinson 16 bit plot gave awful results - and I never got to the bottom of why.



Sure other DACs have managed to get closer to Dave over the last 7 years and some measurements are better (noise for example).

Noise is irrelevant if it's inaudible and fixed - which will be the case for Dave.

But - and this is a big but, it depends what you measure and how you interpret the importance of those measurements - in terms of noise floor modulation (nobody else measures for) Dave I firmly expect to be still the no 1. And interpolation filters that are min phase, NOS or show slow roll off (all of the filters in all other DACs) to me are fundamentally broken and not fit for purpose.



I am an it then? Dave (excepting the metalwork) is my baby.

And on the same week-end that ASR was published, What Hi-Fi (a magazine which Chord do not advertise with) published their list of 16 best DACs. Chord had five of them - all of Chord's DAC product range. And Dave has continued to achieve countless awards in respectable professional websites and magazines. Have all of these journalists been duped too?



My Dave measurements are -127dB Awt referenced to the 6.75v max output level. That would make it 21 bits.



Given that transients are an essential cue for the brain to create the audible illusion, it's no great leap of faith to state that a DAC must reconstruct transients to eliminate timing errors - that is ensuring that transients are reconstructed without being seemingly randomly too early or too late. It is also obvious that interpolation filters will modulate the timing of transients and create these kind of errors. The only contentious aspect is the level of transient timing reconstruction accuracy that is needed, and how the interpolation filter is optimised. And that depends upon huge amounts of listening tests, something that filter designers do not do at all.

Well after you and I have left this mortal coil, I am convinced that in the future it will be de rigour to design high end interpolation filters with transient reconstruction accuracy being the no 1 priority. Just because I am the only one to talk about it or realise the importance of it does not make it wrong.



My designs are about making the performance as accurate and transparent as possible to the original performance as I hear it. If others do not perceive as I do then so be it, I am not bothered. Thankfully there are very many people who agree with me and are prepared to spend their own money on it - something that I am grateful for, which is why I spend so much time on these threads.

Another aspect is that often thousands of specific and detailed listening tests are involved, that is simply not possible with a panel.

And I am not a testee for Chord - I am entirely independent and own all of the IP that goes into my designs.



Actually SINAD is worthless as a useful measurement parameter - at least 0 to 60 does give you one important idea for a car. It's more like measuring the length of a vehicle, as a two seat sports car is much better than a long truck, and then ranking cars solely on their length.

The reason why it's useless is that a DAC with a completely fixed noise level of say -100dB (giving SINAD of 100dB) measured in the context of the way it's being used, would give inaudible noise in reality. If this DAC was perfect in every other regard (no distortion etc) and was compared to a DAC at -120dB noise (giving 120 SINAD), and also perfect in every other regard, the listener would not be able to hear any difference whatsoever. But a DAC that had SINAD of 120 dB but with copious amounts of higher order and anharmonic distortion, noise floor modulation and poor reconstruction filters, would sound terrible by comparison to the lowly 100dB SINAD DAC.
I have to say, I'm incredibly disappointed and do feel duped. I thought we were getting Rob Watts designed metalwork. What about the porthole inspired display? was that all a lie? is it just...round? are the screws just coincidental??? I specifically got it because it was cheaper than a Nautilus or a Royal Oak :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 8:29 AM Post #21,697 of 25,883
I have to say, I'm incredibly disappointed and do feel duped. I thought we were getting Rob Watts designed metalwork. What about the porthole inspired display? was that all a lie? is it just...round? are the screws just coincidental??? I specifically got it because it was cheaper than a Nautilus or a Royal Oak :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Somebody, very eccentric, has designed the Look of the Chord products.
You either love them or hate them.
I blocked the glass window on my Hugo2 with a sheet of translucent plastic! didn't like to see inside the circuit board.
Remote and everything still works.
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 9:18 AM Post #21,698 of 25,883
I honestly think Rob is BSing us with his “timing transient” claims. Did he invent this term?

He didn't invent it but he's the only DAC designer to focus on taps and recovering transients the way he does but there's also argument that filters with pre and post ringing don't have correct transients which WTA filter has a lot of. ringing does show up in audio file measurements because not everyone listens to perfectly recorded and mixed, uncompressed high dynamic range music. if its audible though that's still out for debate, some say it contributes to listening fatigue.
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 9:24 AM Post #21,699 of 25,883
My Dave measurements are -127dB Awt referenced to the 6.75v max output level. That would make it 21 bits.
Your Dave is 21 bits, JA measured one has 20 bits and GS and ASR measured ones have 18bits. Seems like Chord's precision manufacturing SOP may need to be updated to correct for these significant variances in performances
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 9:25 AM Post #21,700 of 25,883
Your Dave is 21 bits, JA measured one has 20 bits and GS and ASR measured ones have 18bits. Seems like Chord's precision manufacturing SOP may need to be updated to correct for these significant variances in performances
Worth mentioning that RW's figures are A-weighted so they will never be the same as those from myself/Amir etc.
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 9:27 AM Post #21,701 of 25,883
He didn't invent it but he's the only DAC designer to focus on taps and recovering transients the way he does but there's also argument that filters with pre and post ringing don't have correct transients which WTA filter has a lot of. ringing does show up in audio file measurements because not everyone listens to perfectly recorded and mixed, uncompressed high dynamic range music. if its audible though that's still out for debate, some say it contributes to listening fatigue.
My personal preference is a linear slow rolloff filter (windowed sinc) that does not introduce high frequency aliasing signals in the audible range.
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 9:28 AM Post #21,702 of 25,883
Worth mentioning that RW's figures are A-weighted so they will never be the same as those from myself/Amir etc.
Oh..didn't realize that.. Chord is playing games again, apparently.

All these half truths and manipulation by manufacturer are really grating on my nerves -- and people say I am "negative" about his hobby......
 
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Jul 25, 2022 at 9:29 AM Post #21,703 of 25,883
Oh..didn't realize that.. Chord is playing games again, apparently.
Not really. A lot of manufacturers use A-Weighted specs and there are lots of valid reasons to do so.

I personally don't simply because MOST measurements and specs available are unweighted so I want my testing to be comparable to that but that doesn't mean either way is inherently correct
 
Jul 25, 2022 at 9:32 AM Post #21,704 of 25,883
Not really. A lot of manufacturers use A-Weighted specs and there are lots of valid reasons to do so.

I personally don't simply because MOST measurements and specs available are unweighted so I want my testing to be comparable to that but that doesn't mean either way is inherently correct
Yeah, let's cut off treble and bass and just measure the mid-range....it's valid for designing ear muffs for construction workers not measuring the performance of a high priced DAC.

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Jul 25, 2022 at 9:34 AM Post #21,705 of 25,883
I am most disappointed by the poor SINAD of the headphone output at audible levels. I thought Chord’s approach to the headphone output was supposed to be superior as essentially signal coming straight out of the DAC without an amplifier in the path. Why is the headphone out SINAD worse than XLR / RCA output?
 

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