[Ragnar-BY]

1: HEKse 2: D8000 Pro 3: ZMF Verite open or closed 4: Utopia?

Add T+A Solitaire P to this list

 

[VladYR]

Add T+A Solitaire P to this list

It actually works quite well with the Dave? From what I heard, it requires a T+A amp to sound its best.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Rob often says that the best sound from DAVE is when the headphone out is direct without introducing an external amp. I was wondering if this is true then why get either the Abyss Phi TC or Susvara that offer TOTL sound reproduction that then is degraded by needing amplification beyond DAVE direct? So which of the following HPs driven directly from DAVE/M-Scaler would beat the TC or Susvara unamped: 1: HEKse 2: D8000 Pro 3: ZMF Verite open or closed 4: Utopia?

This point/topic is really overstated imo. There is no audible degradation of sound by adding a very high quality, transparent amp between the Dave and sensitive headphones. I've had the Utopia, VC and ATH-L3000, all easy to drive headphones and I preferred each marginally out of the WA33, behind the Dave. Now, the WA33 is about as transparent of a tube amp that you can get, and obviously any major component can impact the sound, but imo again the purity of sound argument is just overstated. That said, each were also really good straight out of the Dave. The Utopia had the best synergy with the Dave and even still, sounded a bit better with the WA33, of which it's also known to pair really well with. Last point here... as you mention, all of the generally agreed upon best headphones require an external amp. Certainly I wouldn't own a $7k-$10k DAC and exclude myself from the possibility of hearing/owning the absolute best headphones.

If you're a purist and want to be able to say you're listening to the most transparent sound possible, that I do get. But in the real world, I just don't find it relevant and certainly not enough to handicap my headphone system by just owning the Dave (unless saving money was the goal). Again, with a very high quality and mainly transparent amp.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

It actually works quite well with the Dave?

Works good. With external amp Solitaire P have warmer and somewhat more forgiving tonality, but I prefer clarity and transparency of DAVE.

 

[ufospls2]

This point/topic is really overstated imo. There is no audible degradation of sound by adding a very high quality, transparent amp between the Dave and sensitive headphones. I've had the Utopia, VC and ATH-L3000, all easy to drive headphones and I preferred each marginally out of the WA33, behind the Dave. Now, the WA33 is about as transparent of a tube amp that you can get, and obviously any major component can impact the sound, but imo again the purity of sound argument is just overstated. That said, each was also really good straight out of the Dave. The Utopia had the best synergy with the Dave and even still, sounded a bit better with the WA33, of which it's also known to pair really well with. Last point here... as you mention, all of the generally agreed upon best headphones require an external amp. Certainly I wouldn't own a $7k-$10k DAC and exclude myself from the possibility of hearing/owning the absolute best headphones.

If you're a purist and want to be able to say you're listening to the most transparent sound possible, that I do get. But in the real world, I just don't find it relevant and certainly not enough to handicap my headphone system by just owning the Dave (unless saving money was the goal). Again, with a very high quality and mainly transparent amp.

Agreed 100%. Incredibly overstated. I fell into that trap when I owned a DAVE. For my personal preferences, DAVE+Amp with Susvara or AB1266TC smokes the other mentioned headphones with dave direct. I can be told "oh you're just enjoying the sound of distortion" till the cows come home. Don't care. Even for easy to drive headphones, sometimes an amp would be preferable vs DAVE direct. Totally depends on the listeners preferences, the headphones in question, and the budget available.

 

[Glossator]

Agreed 100%. Incredibly overstated. I fell into that trap when I owned a DAVE. For my personal preferences, DAVE+Amp with Susvara or AB1266TC smokes the other mentioned headphones with dave direct. I can be told "oh you're just enjoying the sound of distortion" till the cows come home. Don't care. Even for easy to drive headphones, sometimes an amp would be preferable vs DAVE direct. Totally depends on the listeners preferences, the headphones in question, and the budget available.

I have not tried an external amp - and I suspect this is very personal. However, I have experimented with headphone cables on Utopia (because the clean source approach appealed to me). The differences are readily detectable. So if a single wire can make a difference, I can imagine that an amplifier will too … (and I would expect more so).

 

[ufospls2]

I have not tried an external amp - and I suspect this is very personal. However, I have experimented with headphone cables on Utopia (because the clean source approach appealed to me). The differences are readily detectable. So if a single wire can make a difference, I can imagine that an amplifier will too … (and I would expect more so).

Utopia+DAVE direct is one of the better direct from DAVE combos I think. I just happen to personally not be a huge Utopia fan vs the other Flagships You are right, very much personal preference.

 

[edwardsean]

Agreed 100%. Incredibly overstated. I fell into that trap when I owned a DAVE. For my personal preferences, DAVE+Amp with Susvara or AB1266TC smokes the other mentioned headphones with dave direct. I can be told "oh you're just enjoying the sound of distortion" till the cows come home. Don't care. Even for easy to drive headphones, sometimes an amp would be preferable vs DAVE direct. Totally depends on the listeners preferences, the headphones in question, and the budget available.

By this time, I think we're beyond the "either/or" and have a fuller understanding.

The most pristine sound will come from Dave's direct outputs. You are gaining some distortion with an amp, even the best amps. One of Dave's signature strengths is a headphone plugged directly into the headphone out which taps directly in the D/A pulse array. A top-tier headphone suited to Dave's native output will not only give you the most transparent signal from Dave, but to some ears, the most transparent signal anywhere.

And, at the same time:

Definitely, if you add an amp, you are not "just enjoying the sound of added distortion." There is a level of performance, dynamics, soundstage, etc. that are transformative over Dave's stock headphone out. Also, the AB1266 and Susvara provide some singular listening experiences with a high caliber amp. I think it would be a shame to cross them off on principle without hearing some combinations firsthand.

Dave purists are keeping something that amp-users are giving up, and amp-users are gaining something over purists (depending on the phone). The choice of a transducer, phone or speaker, has the final say in shaping the sound of the entire chain. It's worth taking a step back and considering the whole picture, and find a place where you can audition different setups if you can. The investment of time and energy would be worth it in my opinion.

 

[ufospls2]

By this time, I think we're beyond the "either/or" and have a fuller understanding.

The most pristine sound will come from Dave's direct outputs. You are gaining some distortion with an amp, even the best amps. One of Dave's signature strengths is a headphone plugged directly into the headphone out which taps directly in the D/A pulse array. A top-tier headphone suited to Dave's native output will not only give you the most transparent signal from Dave, but to some ears, the most transparent signal anywhere.

And, at the same time:

Definitely, if you add an amp, you are not "just enjoying the sound of added distortion." There is a level of performance, dynamics, soundstage, etc. that are transformative over Dave's stock headphone out. Also, the AB1266 and Susvara provide some singular listening experiences with a high caliber amp. I think it would be a shame to cross them off on principle without hearing some combinations firsthand.

Dave purists are keeping something that amp-users are giving up, and amp-users are gaining something over purists (depending on the phone). The choice of a transducer, phone or speaker, has the final say in shaping the sound of the entire chain. It's worth taking a step back and considering the whole picture, and find a place where you can audition different setups if you can. The investment of time and energy would be worth it in my opinion.

Very well, and eloquently put. Totally agreed.

 

[number1sixerfan]

By this time, I think we're beyond the "either/or" and have a fuller understanding.

The most pristine sound will come from Dave's direct outputs. You are gaining some distortion with an amp, even the best amps. One of Dave's signature strengths is a headphone plugged directly into the headphone out which taps directly in the D/A pulse array. A top-tier headphone suited to Dave's native output will not only give you the most transparent signal from Dave, but to some ears, the most transparent signal anywhere.

And, at the same time:

Definitely, if you add an amp, you are not "just enjoying the sound of added distortion." There is a level of performance, dynamics, soundstage, etc. that are transformative over Dave's stock headphone out. Also, the AB1266 and Susvara provide some singular listening experiences with a high caliber amp. I think it would be a shame to cross them off on principle without hearing some combinations firsthand.

Dave purists are keeping something that amp-users are giving up, and amp-users are gaining something over purists (depending on the phone). The choice of a transducer, phone or speaker, has the final say in shaping the sound of the entire chain. It's worth taking a step back and considering the whole picture, and find a place where you can audition different setups if you can. The investment of time and energy would be worth it in my opinion.

Could not have stated this any better. Almost edited my original post to add that it's a tradeoff framework, but you covered my additional thoughts exactly and as mentioned, eloquently.

 

[jlbrach]

If I am listening to a utopia I would and have listened straight out of the Dave…with a susvara or abyss tc one needs a high quality amp and although obviously there is some issue introducing an amp the advantages of a high quality amp overcome the issues IMHO

 

[Sampajanna]

Yes, I really like 2.0. In truth I do not need all the twiddly bits in Roon and I am not prepared to sacrifice sound quality just for a few twiddly bits.

Haha. I agree SQ is more important, but i also appreciate reading about new artists or albums, being able to share albums with buddies at the push of a button and other twiddles...

 

[Sampajanna]

Doesn't he select a power supply rather than design it?

My sentiments exactly. I’m not opposed to external DYI power supplies from external vendors. I put this add on in the same equivalence class as the Mod Squad folks who used to do aftermarket mods of various amps and CD players. The Sony SCD-1 for example attracted many such mods.

In all such cases you might like the modified sound, but it’s not what the original designer intended. The Dave modded with Sean Jacobs external power supply is technically not a Chord sanctioned product. No warranty of any kind if something blows up. With an expensive DAC, I’d be wary of messing about too much. Change cables etc., but once you start messing with the innards, where does it stop? Why not change all the caps? The op amps? I get that audiophiles are constantly trying to improve the sound of their system. I would pay attention to the weakest links in any system, and that’s invariably the speakers or the room or the headphones. DAC’s of the caliber of Dave have S/N ratios near -130dB. Not sure how much of the supposed improvements are audible once you down to Brownian noise of the electrons over resistors, which is around -140dB. Meanwhile, most moving coil speakers have 5-10% distortion in the bass and not much better in the midrange and treble. Rooms can produce +/- 12dB imbalances in the bass. I would focus on the higher order bits,

Don't know how many times this needs to be hashed and why people always have so strong of opinions about things they have never heard. The DC4 does not change the Dave's sound. I had the Dave for years before I got the DC4. I know its sound well. And the swap is minor, takes ten minutes and my warranty was already void. I could also put the original back just as easily, and even did one time just to verify what my ears were hearing. Whatever you like about the Dave is better with better power.. Dacs are sensitive to power. I used to be a bit skeptical of power cables til I swapped a few on the Dave. The difference was not small. The power cable made a huge difference. That got me thinking that if the power cable makes such a big difference, wouldn't Sean's DC4 do even more so I gave it a try. I was blown away. Aside from getting new speakers, it is amongst the biggest upgrades I have experienced full stop. It is not a distortion, coloration or shift in tone, nor is it subtle "golden ear" territory. That's all I can say. Try it and you will keep it. I have no doubt that any Dave owner would keep it....

 

[Sampajanna]

PS you can verify this without the DC4; just swap power cables listening to tracks you know and trying a few grades/levels of power cable. Whatever you experience there, multiple by 10X or more and you are at the DC4!

 

[genefruit]

Don't know how many times this needs to be hashed and why people always have so strong of opinions about things they have never heard. The DC4 does not change the Dave's sound. I had the Dave for years before I got the DC4. I know its sound well. And the swap is minor, takes ten minutes and my warranty was already void. I could also put the original back just as easily, and even did one time just to verify what my ears were hearing. Whatever you like about the Dave is better with better power.. Dacs are sensitive to power. I used to be a bit skeptical of power cables til I swapped a few on the Dave. The difference was not small. The power cable made a huge difference. That got me thinking that if the power cable makes such a big difference, wouldn't Sean's DC4 do even more so I gave it a try. I was blown away. Aside from getting new speakers, it is amongst the biggest upgrades I have experienced full stop. It is not a distortion, coloration or shift in tone, nor is it subtle "golden ear" territory. That's all I can say. Try it and you will keep it. I have no doubt that any Dave owner would keep it....

After you moved to the DC4, did you try different power cables and if so, did they still make a huge difference?