CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[buson160man]

  wow the dave is really cool looking I almost expect a little door to open and tiny little green men to walk out. But humor  aside it looks to be another over the top chord offering .But it is no doubt a exceptional sounding dac for those who have the means  to afford it.

 

[Crashem]

What I am really waiting on is a lampi vs Dave comparison. Two different approaches. Have a Hugo and had a lamp big5. Not really fair comparison. But big5 destroyed the Hugo with DSD and Pcm Came down to a matter of taste.

Couldn't turn down deal to upgrade to lampi GG. So really curious how GG going to compare to Dave. Much fairer comparison as similar price and Dave has all the supporting systems (ps, etc) you expect in high end dac. So if any has had chance to compare, I'm interested in hearing what you thought.

 

[Articnoise]

What I am really waiting on is a lampi vs Dave comparison. Two different approaches. Have a Hugo and had a lamp big5. Not really fair comparison. But big5 destroyed the Hugo with DSD and Pcm Came down to a matter of taste.

Couldn't turn down deal to upgrade to lampi GG. So really curious how GG going to compare to Dave. Much fairer comparison as similar price and Dave has all the supporting systems (ps, etc) you expect in high end dac. So if any has had chance to compare, I'm interested in hearing what you thought.

 

Yes it would be an interesting comparison.

 

Is your GG a DAC only or one with headphone out?

 

[Crashem]

 



Yes it would be an interesting comparison.



 



Is your GG a DAC only or one with headphone out?

Dac only. They have a head dac version. But realistically at this level of equipment I don't expect any dac with headphone amp to be competitive to likely headphone amps you would pair it with. I remember people on Hugo thread arguing that it would drive the hd800 as well as anything which is absurd if you have heard a top tier headphone amp. Give me a world class dac and I'll be a happy camper. No need for anything else. In my case, since I mainly use stax, it isn't even an issue.

 

[JaZZ]

...realistically at this level of equipment I don't expect any dac with headphone amp to be competitive to likely headphone amps you would pair it with. I remember people on Hugo thread arguing that it would drive the hd800 as well as anything which is absurd if you have heard a top tier headphone amp. Give me a world class dac and I'll be a happy camper. No need for anything else. In my case, since I mainly use stax, it isn't even an issue.

 
Like DAVE, the Hugo isn't a DAC with added headphone amp. The DAC is the headphone amp at the same time. And an excellent one at that. Extremely low output impedance, the same with harmonic distortion, and enough power to drive every dynamic headphone on the planet with ease, except for some demanding exotics.
 
On the other hand I agree that such add-ons in pure DAC concepts most likely won't do the quality of the high-caliber DAC justice, and be it a Nagra or Lampizator.
 
With Hugo and DAVE, there's no headphone-amp stage to be bypassed, so amplifying the output signal won't «improve» it. The Hugo sounds as it sounds (when heard through headphones). You seem to believe that «top tier amps» are exemplary when it comes to neutrality. I say the «improvement» they provide in the case of Hugo (if they do) is due to euphonic/synergetic coloration. I'm speaking of own experience and experiments to verify amplifier sound. Sure, expensive amps offer higher chance to at least sound more transparent than cheaper ones, but they're not necessarily less colored.
 
I really hope you won't add an amp to DAVE with dynamic headphones! (This although its output power isn't miles higher than Hugo's.) You'd sacrifice a lot of its merits. If you need a correction of sonic balance (which is always a possibility if not even a must), there are more plausible tools than amplifiers.
 
So have fun with your Lampizator or DAVE anyway!

 

 

[lovethatsound]

Like DAVE, the Hugo isn't a DAC with added headphone amp. The DAC is the headphone amp at the same time. And an excellent one at that. Extremely low output impedance, the same with harmonic distortion, and enough power to drive every dynamic headphone on the planet with ease, except for some demanding exotics.

On the other hand I agree that such add-ons in pure DAC concepts most likely won't do the quality of the high-caliber DAC justice, and be it a Nagra or Lampizator.

With Hugo and DAVE, there's no headphone-amp stage to be bypassed, so amplifying the output signal won't «improve» it. The Hugo sounds as it sounds (when heard through headphones). You seem to believe that «top tier amps» are exemplary when it comes to neutrality. I say the «improvement» they provide in the case of Hugo (if they do) is due to euphonic/synergetic coloration. I'm speaking of own experience and experiments to verify amplifier sound. Sure, expensive amps offer higher chance to at least sound more transparent than cheaper ones, but they're not necessarily less colored.

I really hope you won't add an amp to DAVE with dynamic headphones! (This although its output power isn't miles higher than Hugo's.) You'd sacrifice a lot of its merits. If you need a correction of sonic balance (which is always a possibility if not even a must), there are more plausible tools than amplifiers.

So have fun with your Lampizator or DAVE anyway!  

Look JaZZ
You've use EQ on your headphones with the Dave,which is really just as bad as someone else using a headphone amp according to you . I've had my Dave for about 8 weeks now,and i am in no doubt that my hd800 sound great just using Dave,and cardas clear cable,but I've also been using my hdvd800 amp with Dave as well(fully balance)and if I'm honest about it,i think it adds to the daves sound without losing anything.Theirs nothing wrong with using a headphone amp or EQ if that's the way you like it,but you can not tell someone not to use a headphone amp ,when you have used EQ to change the sound yourself.Dave is a great dac,maybe one of the best dacs out there,let's all enjoy it,the way we want to enjoy it,without telling other people that their way is wrong

 

[JaZZ]

Look JaZZ
You've use EQ on your headphones with the Dave,which is really just as bad as someone else using a headphone amp according to you . I've had my Dave for about 8 weeks now,and i am in no doubt that my hd800 sound great just using Dave,and cardas clear cable,but I've also been using my hdvd800 amp with Dave as well(fully balance)and if I'm honest about it,i think it adds to the daves sound without losing anything.Theirs nothing wrong with using a headphone amp or EQ if that's the way you like it,but you can not tell someone not to use a headphone amp ,when you have used EQ to change the sound yourself.Dave is a great dac,maybe one of the best dacs out there,let's all enjoy it,the way we want to enjoy it,without telling other people that their way is wrong

 
Hi Lovethatsound
 
I'm not saying using a headphone amp is bad, but it is worse than using an equalizer for adjusting the sonic balance to your needs if you want maximum accuracy – to hear how the recording is meant to sound.
 
Can you tell me what's so bad about equalizing (in the digital domain)? If you want a – passably – flat over-all (!) frequency response on your ears, you can't do better. Also bear in mind that by doing so you also compensate for the phase distortion accompanying the humps and dips of your headphones.
 
I'll expand on the subject a bit more. I own an old «semiprofessional» analogue Technics equalizer (SH-9010), 2-channel, 5-band, fully parametric. That was during my speaker-builder area. It turned out to be only of use for helping with crossover-network tuning. As a tool for improving the sound during listening to music it failed miserably: reduced transparency, omnipresent roughness. You must know that analogue equalizers introduce a bunch of electronics components into the signal path. That's a lesson one can learn from them: electronics components influence the sound. In fact there's no exception (according to my experience and experiments as a long-time audiophile fanatic). I happen to share Rob Watts' audio philosophy since quite a while, without knowing anything from Chord. Now, with the free equalizers that come with computers and DAPs, I'm glad to realize that they don't have any adverse effect of the likes of my Technics equalizer. In fact there are none I'm able to detect – which was to be expected, actually.
 
When I say «electronics components», one could even include cables and even plugs. A funny thing which almost makes me shake my head myself is the double-adapter thing I sometimes attach to the Silver Dragon cable of my HifiMan HE1000: a ¹/₄ to ¹/₈" adapter attached to an ¹/₈ to ¹/₄" adapter, hence a gold-plated block of metal (?). It creates a mild sleekness and almost electrostatic halo around treble tones, which I sometimes like better that the slight harshness from the HE1000/Silver Dragon. Nowadays, after having found my ideal EQ curve, I don't use it anymore, though (fingers crossed). But maybe the new cable I'm planning to make will make the sound even better...
 
Certainly I was a bit overstating when I wrote an amp sacrifices «a lot» of DAVE's merits – after all they shine through my electrostats as well. But I wish to have an electrostatic amp acting as wire without gain – like for my dynamic headphones – nonetheless.

 

[lovethatsound]

Hi Lovethatsound

I'm not saying using a headphone amp is bad, but it is worse than using an equalizer for adjusting the sonic balance to your needs if you want maximum accuracy – to hear how the recording is meant to sound.

Can you tell me what's so bad about equalizing (in the digital domain)? If you want a – passably – flat over-all (!) frequency response on your ears, you can't do better. Also bear in mind that by doing so you also compensate for the phase distortion accompanying the humps and dips of your headphones.

I'll expand on the subject a bit more. I own an old «semiprofessional» analogue Technics equalizer (SH-9010), 2-channel, 5-band, fully parametric. That was during my speaker-builder area. It turned out to be only of use for helping with crossover-network tuning. As a tool for improving the sound during listening to music it failed miserably: reduced transparency, omnipresent roughness. You must know that analogue equalizers introduce a bunch of electronics components into the signal path. That's a lesson one can learn from them: electronics components influence the sound. In fact there's no exception (according to my experience and experiments as a long-time audiophile fanatic). I happen to share Rob Watts' audio philosophy since quite a while, without knowing anything from Chord. Now, with the free equalizers that come with computers and DAPs, I'm glad to realize that they don't have any adverse effect of the likes of my Technics equalizer. In fact there are none I'm able to detect – which was to be expected, actually.

When I say «electronics components», one could even include cables and even plugs. A funny thing which almost makes me shake my head myself is the double-adapter thing I sometimes attach to the Silver Dragon cable of my HifiMan HE1000: a ¹/₄ to ¹/₈" adapter attached to an ¹/₈ to ¹/₄" adapter, hence a gold-plated block of metal (?). It creates a mild sleekness and almost electrostatic halo around treble tones, which I sometimes like better that the slight harshness from the HE1000/Silver Dragon. Nowadays, after having found my ideal EQ curve, I don't use it anymore, though (fingers crossed). But maybe the new cable I'm planning to make will make the sound even better...

Certainly I was a bit overstating when I wrote an amp sacrifices «a lot» of DAVE's merits – after all they shine through my electrostats as well. But I wish to have an electrostatic amp acting as wire without gain – like for my dynamic headphones – nonetheless.

Hi jaZz
All I'm saying JaZZ,is that you have used EQ,which is altering the sound yourself,and then your telling people not use an headphone amp because it alters the sound,well it just doesn't make sense to me.How can you tell someone not to use a headphone amp and then you use EQ,which alters the sound to your liking . I've got nothing against you using EQ,but you can't tell other people not to use a headphone amp when you have altered the sound already, it's like shooting yourself in the foot . I'm not going to say anymore about this subject now,I've made my point and hope you can understand it . I'm glad you're enjoying the Dave the way YOU want to enjoy it and hope you have many a happy hour with it

 

[JaZZ]

Hi jaZZ
All I'm saying JaZZ, is that you have used EQ,which is altering the sound yourself,and then your telling people not use an headphone amp because it alters the sound,well it just doesn't make sense to me.How can you tell someone not to use a headphone amp and then you use EQ,which alters the sound to your liking . I've got nothing against you using EQ,but you can't tell other people not to use a headphone amp when you have altered the sound already, it's like shooting yourself in the foot . I'm not going to say anymore about this subject now,I've made my point and hope you can understand it . I'm glad you're enjoying the Dave the way YOU want to enjoy it and hope you have many a happy hour with it

 
Hey Lovethatsound
 
I'm not against altering the sound to one's liking – quite the opposite, I even advocate it. I'm just proposing a better approach (as I see it, in line with Rob Watts) for those who want maximum transparency – like me.
 
If I can I adapt the sound of my headphones to my ears by modifying them – always in the interest of accuracy and transparency. And of course I alter the sound of the recordings (crossfeed [mandatory because of hearing problems!], slight shift of sonic balance if necessary) and finally the signal from my digital source (DAP, computer) via equalizer, adapted to the headphone used by means of customized presets. Not to forget headphone cables and the ones between DAVE and Stax amp.

 

[Crashem]

   
Like DAVE, the Hugo isn't a DAC with added headphone amp. The DAC is the headphone amp at the same time. And an excellent one at that. Extremely low output impedance, the same with harmonic distortion, and enough power to drive every dynamic headphone on the planet with ease, except for some demanding exotics.
 
On the other hand I agree that such add-ons in pure DAC concepts most likely won't do the quality of the high-caliber DAC justice, and be it a Nagra or Lampizator.
 
With Hugo and DAVE, there's no headphone-amp stage to be bypassed, so amplifying the output signal won't «improve» it. The Hugo sounds as it sounds (when heard through headphones). You seem to believe that «top tier amps» are exemplary when it comes to neutrality. I say the «improvement» they provide in the case of Hugo (if they do) is due to euphonic/synergetic coloration. I'm speaking of own experience and experiments to verify amplifier sound. Sure, expensive amps offer higher chance to at least sound more transparent than cheaper ones, but they're not necessarily less colored.
 
I really hope you won't add an amp to DAVE with dynamic headphones! (This although its output power isn't miles higher than Hugo's.) You'd sacrifice a lot of its merits. If you need a correction of sonic balance (which is always a possibility if not even a must), there are more plausible tools than amplifiers.
 
So have fun with your Lampizator or DAVE anyway!

 

 
I get the design of DAVE/Hugo.  The opamps that bring the signal up to line level are the same ones that provide the headphone amplification and volume is increased in the digital domain.  So, in that way, there is no headphone amp per say.
 
However, I do have a problem looking purely at measurements in determining what is being done to the sound.  Measurements are important, but I don't think they begin to capture the entire story.  Some of the most neutral devices I have heard sound like absolute crap.  The fact is the top delta sigma dacs measure really well but sound off to me.  Typically people try to explain that by saying these other measurements are the ones that matter.  Hugo/DAVE is making such an argument that their WTA filter and increased "tap length" make a difference because we can actually hear the difference in timing of that level.  Reality is no scientific proof either way if we actually can.  But given that increasing tap lengths do seem to make Chord's DAC better, I am inclined to agree.  In other words, I used my ears to decide end of day.
 
With STAX, I don't have that dilemma.  But with the Hugo at least, my amps crushed the headphone output on the Hugo.  Call it expectation bias. Call it coloration I love. Or call it measurements beyond what is normally measured.  Hopefully Ill have a chance to audition/use the Dave.  Ill definitely try all possible outputs including built in.

 

[CoLdAsSauLt]

Hey Lovethatsound

I'm not against altering the sound to one's liking – quite the opposite, I even advocate it. I'm just proposing a better approach (as I see it, in line with Rob Watts) for those who want maximum transparency – like me.

If I can I adapt the sound of my headphones to my ears by modifying them – always in the interest of accuracy and transparency. And of course I alter the sound of the recordings (crossfeed [mandatory because of hearing problems!], slight shift of sonic balance if necessary) and finally the signal from my digital source (DAP, computer) via equalizer, adapted to the headphone used by means of customized presets. Not to forget headphone cables and the ones between DAVE and Stax amp.

Hi Jazz

When your headphones are driven to the maximum of their capabilities, I very much agree with your statement. However, not only HE-6 will benefit from a more capable amp. Most Sennheisers, but imo also a lot of Audeze cans, certainly my LCD-3F, scale very well with their amp. So let's assume for now that there is still some room for improvement in driving capabilities and tight grip on the headphone driver, especially with Hugo (haven't heard Dave, but Hugo is less capable on paper + to the experience of some people who did hear both, so by definition this verified difference is also Hugo's minimal room for improvement).

If you only want to change tonal balance, e.g. easing out a classic HD800 6kHz spike, EQing is indeed the most clean way to adjust the sound. Lots of people who frown upon EQ, are constantly looking for the right gear to tailor their sound on a pure hardware level. They often fail to see however that they are adding a whole lot of different influencing factors too, like some harmonic distortion (which can be very pleasing nonetheless, cfr. classic tube amps).

However, when a headphone is not driven to its maximum capabilities, a better amp might add 5% accurateness or betterness by having better control over the headphone, while only losing 2% due to the added electronics, harmonic distortion, coloration and other polluting factors that are inherent to the amp.

So in the end, you still gain 3% by adding a better amp. (Don't quote me on the number, they are just an example) I think this might be what Lovethatsound is experiencing...

 

[Kamil21]

Review Alert
 
Here is a new review in Japanese on Dave. I had to use Google to translate it.
 
http://dime.jp/genre/232350/1/

 

[metalboss]

Cool Unboxing of Chord Dave
 
 

 

[lovethatsound]

Cool Unboxing of Chord Dave


 

Nicely Done

 

[Beolab]

Great review!
 
The thread died suddenly ?=)