CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[highendhifi]

I tried an arcam rdac and olive 4HD to play files but I can't really take to files and CD replay is my main source with 20 years worth of discs.... So I use my Bryston BCD-1 CD player. I have a McIntosh MCD550 as well but the Bryston, despite being a third of the cost, takes it apart.

 

[highendhifi]

What I found interesting is that the HF filter had such a marked effect on the spectrum. I understand one of its functions is to assist in making SACD's a little less hissy or brash but this was just in a redbook CD.
My dilemma now is whether to stay with my CD players and use them as transports with the DAVE or whether to invest a Red Ref III and perhaps have a little less on the number crunching side?

 

[Beolab]

What I found interesting is that the HF filter had such a marked effect on the spectrum. I understand one of its functions is to assist in making SACD's a little less hissy or brash but this was just in a redbook CD.
My dilemma now is whether to stay with my CD players and use them as transports with the DAVE or whether to invest a Red Ref III and perhaps have a little less on the number crunching side?

DAVE should be better than the Red Ref III with a QBD76 HDSD inside , but it looks and feel nicer to have in your rig !

But DAVE should run it over with ease after a couple of burn in hours!

You should burn it in like 200 hours and then make a decision, its my best tip!

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

No question Dave is a step-up from the Red Ref III. Greater focus and purity for a start.

 

[ecwl]

I tried an arcam rdac and olive 4HD to play files but I can't really take to files and CD replay is my main source with 20 years worth of discs.... So I use my Bryston BCD-1 CD player. I have a McIntosh MCD550 as well but the Bryston, despite being a third of the cost, takes it apart.

So I think Bryston BCD-1 is a great CD player, particularly for its price. And the ideal Bryston to Chord DAVE connection is probably Toslink but BNC should work reasonably great. My take on the situation is you have two new components, Chord DAVE & PMC MB2se. Perhaps you need to listen to the Bryston BCD-1 on the PMC MB2se for a bit first to get used to the new sound and then listen via the Chord DAVE for a while to get a much better feel of the improvement (or lack of improvement from the Chord DAVE). The other thing I've found in the past with my QBD76HDSD is that even with a fairly decent preamplifier, the preamplifier is not totally transparent to the DAC so it is possible the preamplifier is limiting the performance of the system.

 

[highendhifi]

Sadly the DAVE has already gone back to the dealer. I'll have to ask them how many hrs it had under its belt
The Bryston is a great player, really underrated like my old Audionet ART: it's nice to hear agreement on that, ecwl.
The Mb2se's I now realise were way too cold and green to listen to straight out of the box like that and yep, too many variables going on. Power is by Bryston, a 14B, but I also wonder if the BP26 with MPS pre-amp is holding things back a bit. I should have asked to run the DAVE straight to the power....

 

[ecwl]

Sadly the DAVE has already gone back to the dealer. I'll have to ask them how many hrs it had under its belt
The Bryston is a great player, really underrated like my old Audionet ART: it's nice to hear agreement on that, ecwl.
The Mb2se's I now realise were way too cold and green to listen to straight out of the box like that and yep, too many variables going on. Power is by Bryston, a 14B, but I also wonder if the BP26 with MPS pre-amp is holding things back a bit. I should have asked to run the DAVE straight to the power....

Yeah, so I think the problem is not that the Bryston BP26 is holding things back. It is a phenomenal preamplifier. I think the problem is that modern high-end DACs are so transparent nowadays that it is very, very, very difficult to make a preamplifier that is transparent to the DAC. If you go to Ultra Audio website and you can read a very positive review of Simaudio 850P preamplifier. But a reader challenged the reviewer and the reviewer acknowledged that given a choice, he would go straight from DAC to the power amplifier as long as the DAC has good analog or digital volume control. But if you need a preamp, you need a preamp... The thing I wonder about actually is if you can do digital volume control with your BCD-1, would it sound better bypassing the BP26. This was certainly what I discovered with my Chord QBD76HDSD. Btw, I don't have Chord DAVE  yet but if you're going to remove the preamplifier, if you have high-end audiophile power cables into the preamplifier power supply (or into BCD-1), you should probably use that high-end power cable for the Chord DAVE. I know Rob Watts thinks Chord DAVE probably doesn't need super high-end power cables. I certainly find a good power cable makes a big difference for my QBD76HDSD when I use it to directly drive the power amplifier.

 

[Beolab]

Yeah, so I think the problem is not that the Bryston BP26 is holding things back. It is a phenomenal preamplifier. I think the problem is that modern high-end DACs are so transparent nowadays that it is very, very, very difficult to make a preamplifier that is transparent to the DAC. If you go to Ultra Audio website and you can read a very positive review of Simaudio 850P preamplifier. But a reader challenged the reviewer and the reviewer acknowledged that given a choice, he would go straight from DAC to the power amplifier as long as the DAC has good analog or digital volume control. But if you need a preamp, you need a preamp... The thing I wonder about actually is if you can do digital volume control with your BCD-1, would it sound better bypassing the BP26. This was certainly what I discovered with my Chord QBD76HDSD. Btw, I don't have Chord DAVE  yet but if you're going to remove the preamplifier, if you have high-end audiophile power cables into the preamplifier power supply (or into BCD-1), you should probably use that high-end power cable for the Chord DAVE. I know Rob Watts thinks Chord DAVE probably doesn't need super high-end power cables. I certainly find a good power cable makes a big difference for my QBD76HDSD when I use it to directly drive the power amplifier.

1+ for just go pass through the pre-amp! Pre-Amps in my book is a filter, and can not improve the sound, just make it different mybe.

I dont agree with you on high end power cables for the QBD76HDSD , ive tyed almost every Isotek / AudioQuest / NordOst from the top shelf , and it was impossible to tell any diffrence!

( I know that we have very stable power here in Sweden, and i very rarly change any light bowls or anything like it)

But the QBD76 and DAVE are using medical switching power transformers so its hard to make any improvments on a switching power transformer circuit if you know how it works. Why don't you think the Hospitals / medical industry are buying and using NordOst ODIN II to all of their EKG:s , X-Rays, dialysis devices if they improved the accuracy or stability? They got the money for certain when the buy new equipment for many million dollars for just one hospital.
They have special power filters yes and thick cables for driving a magnetic X-ray for example, but its not costing $$$$$ for a single cable.

It is the HighEnd users that have swallowed the high price tags with 95% margin on cables, because im a reseller of AudioQuest , and i know the margin i have up on a AQ cable for example, and it is 75 % !

Just selling nonsense, i wonder when someone should wake up?

On a linear power transformer it may be improvments if you go from a underrated thin cable to a more appropriated one with the right area thickness, but i don't beleve in this propaganda!

If you want improvments for your power amps you should change the thin standard 1,5 square cm2 cable to a 2,5 square cm2 in the wall and let it go direct from your fuse box in the house direct to your power amp.

But for a DAC? You cant even measure any difference if it got the same thickness and lining , not even with the worlds best measuring devices can see any difference.

This is just nonsens, but they look good, feel more rigid and your inner soul can calm down if you have your Ultra High End cable Odin II inserted to a AC outlet with old 50 meters of dryed wires from world war II in your appartment, but if you just buy a 1 meter $1000 cable from the retired vaccum cleaning salesman its going to be fine great sound?

Come on people , you are educated in all sorts of ares but not in to electrics maybe, but this make no sens and it is nonsens!

You don't need to buy a 1 cent cable, but my motto is that if the maker supply a power cable to your amp i think its not going to be a weak underrated and illegal one, it is following and meet all the regulations and classifications , so spend your money on something else instead is my tip of the week

 

[ecwl]

1+ for just go pass through the pre-amp! Pre-Amps in my book is a filter, and can not improve the sound, just make it different mybe.

I dont agree with you on high end power cables for the QBD76HDSD , ive tyed almost every Isotek / AudioQuest / NordOst from the top shelf , and it was impossible to tell any diffrence!

( I know that we have very stable power here in Sweden, and i very rarly change any light bowls or anything like it)

But the QBD76 and DAVE are using medical switching power transformers so its hard to make any improvments on a switching power transformer circuit if you know how it works. Why don't you think the Hospitals / medical industry are buying and using NordOst ODIN II to all of their EKG:s , X-Rays, dialysis devices if they improved the accuracy or stability? They got the money for certain when the buy new equipment for many million dollars for just one hospital.
They have special power filters yes and thick cables for driving a magnetic X-ray for example, but its not costing $$$$$ for a single cable.

It is the HighEnd users that have swallowed the high price tags with 95% margin on cables, because im a reseller of AudioQuest , and i know the margin i have up on a AQ cable for example, and it is 75 % !

Just selling nonsense, i wonder when someone should wake up?

On a linear power transformer it may be improvments if you go from a underrated thin cable to a more appropriated one with the right area thickness, but i don't beleve in this propaganda!

If you want improvments for your power amps you should change the thin standard 1,5 square cm2 cable to a 2,5 square cm2 in the wall and let it go direct from your fuse box in the house direct to your power amp.

But for a DAC? You cant even measure any difference if it got the same thickness and lining , not even with the worlds best measuring devices can see any difference.

This is just nonsens, but they look good, feel more rigid and your inner soul can calm down if you have your Ultra High End cable Odin II inserted to a AC outlet with old 50 meters of dryed wires from world war II in your appartment, but if you just buy a 1 meter $1000 cable from the retired vaccum cleaning salesman its going to be fine great sound?

Come on people , you are educated in all sorts of ares but not in to electrics maybe, but this make no sens and it is nonsens!

You don't need to buy a 1 cent cable, but my motto is that if the maker supply a power cable to your amp i think its not going to be a weak underrated and illegal one, it is following and meet all the regulations and classifications , so spend your money on something else instead is my tip of the week

I'd rather not descend into a "whether power cables make a difference" debate. I completely agree that it makes no sense that power cables make a difference (although Rob Watts did say he used to think it might sometimes because of RF noise). But similarly, it makes no sense that Chord DACs sound better than my iPhone internal DAC that already has at least 90dB dynamic range or Sabre DACs which already have excellent specifications. But what I heard is what I heard. Whether it's because of lots of RF noise in my apartment or as Beolab suspects, maybe just pure placebo effect from the fancy look of the cables I don't know. All I can say was that I had a Nordost Frey 2 hooked up to my Sanders Preamplifier with a Nordost Heimdall 2 hooked to the Chord QBD76HDSD and both were connected to a Torus BM-5 isolation transfomer. I agree with Beolab, I really couldn't tell much of a difference if I were to switch out the Nordost Heimdall 2 and put in say a cheaper Shunyata Venom 3 in that setup. However, when I decided to remove the Sanders preamplifier the first time, I just left the Heimdall 2 hooked up to the Chord QBD76HDSD and while there was a lower noise floor, all the transients were just slightly less dynamic and the music seemed anemic. But when I realized the DAC is now driving the amp and not the preamp, I hook the Frey 2 to the QBD76HDSD and the life of the music came back. I got the lower noise floor and the dynamic transients that I was used to hearing when the system used to go through the Sanders preamplifier. I don't know why I heard what I heard. That's why I am not recommending highendhifi to go out and buy some super expensive power cable. What I'm saying is that if he uses a better power cable for the Bryston BP26/MPS than the BCD1, he should use the better power cable for the Chord DAVE when he bypasses the BP26. It'll cost him nothing but it's an insurance to make sure he can get the best out of the next Chord DAVE demo, in case the power cable matters.

 

[Beolab]

I'd rather not descend into a "whether power cables make a difference" debate. I completely agree that it makes no sense that power cables make a difference (although Rob Watts did say he used to think it might sometimes because of RF noise). But similarly, it makes no sense that Chord DACs sound better than my iPhone internal DAC that already has at least 90dB dynamic range or Sabre DACs which already have excellent specifications. But what I heard is what I heard. Whether it's because of lots of RF noise in my apartment or as Beolab suspects, maybe just pure placebo effect from the fancy look of the cables I don't know. All I can say was that I had a Nordost Frey 2 hooked up to my Sanders Preamplifier with a Nordost Heimdall 2 hooked to the Chord QBD76HDSD and both were connected to a Torus BM-5 isolation transfomer. I agree with Beolab, I really couldn't tell much of a difference if I were to switch out the Nordost Heimdall 2 and put in say a cheaper Shunyata Venom 3 in that setup. However, when I decided to remove the Sanders preamplifier the first time, I just left the Heimdall 2 hooked up to the Chord QBD76HDSD and while there was a lower noise floor, all the transients were just slightly less dynamic and the music seemed anemic. But when I realized the DAC is now driving the amp and not the preamp, I hook the Frey 2 to the QBD76HDSD and the life of the music came back. I got the lower noise floor and the dynamic transients that I was used to hearing when the system used to go through the Sanders preamplifier. I don't know why I heard what I heard. That's why I am not recommending highendhifi to go out and buy some super expensive power cable. What I'm saying is that if he uses a better power cable for the Bryston BP26/MPS than the BCD1, he should use the better power cable for the Chord DAVE when he bypasses the BP26. It'll cost him nothing but it's an insurance to make sure he can get the best out of the next Chord DAVE demo, in case the power cable matters.

1+ regards for your down to earth humble answer!
Mostly it is placebo and your mind play you some tricks all the time including to me and it is sometimes hard to distinguish what is real or what is placebo.

Me and a friend of my was attending in a very interesting study-group a couple of years ago about the human hearing and how we can distinguish and separate sounds from memory.
Placebo was a key factor and was one session in the study:
The listening-tests where out formed by a professor in electro physics from The Royal Technical University ( KTH ) here in Stockholm.

We where 30 people attending as testing jury.

The professor played one song 3 min long and we did not know what we should listen for if it was any in specific, so we just listen and tried to remember all parts and nuances , the dynamics from cymbals, dept from the vocal singer and all the rest.

Then after the first listening he went out in the back where all the testing devices where placed and i like among of the rest of the group thought he disconnected something, and then he was back as fast as he had left the room.

Now everyone thought whats going to happen next?

Just listen again he said and take notes in your paper what differences you could hear!

So he played the same song again on the same volume after 10 min so the ears had not adapted to the sound and had get any fatigue.

Now i sat and thought i was hearing the sound a little more fluid this time, but the rest of the group wrote like the pencils where on fire!

And everyone around incl. my friend told be did you here the great improvement of the overall sound, it was much more control and a ease of effortless to the sound this time!

The professor did similar tests the hole session, but with a small differences in the sound.

In the end; the result he showed us after collecting all notepapers from the test jury group, he notices we all had wrote down that the first listening to the second that we all had heard a grate overall improvement!

The professor stood just there and i thought i could see a little smile on his dry lips , and he told us that he haven't done anything with the sound in the first session, just try to trick us when he disconnected something back in the test lab, so we where listen to the exact same song, but the human brain hear and focus on different things each time you here a song the second time.

So if you switch the power cable next time to a "High End equivalent one, and then play the same song one more time, you are going to hear different things in the song, because of you brains focusing on different parts, not caused by the power cable.

 

[lovethatsound]

Yes cables are a mine field,but i can say this,when i use my hd800 with Dave,I've got a choice of 2 cables,the stock cable and a cardas clear cable,now you could blind fold me and i could tell you which cable was being use a 100% every time.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

The first thing about testing is that the listeners need to be familiar with the acoustics of the room, also the hifi setup and also familiar with the recordings used. The only way this can be done properly is in your own room with your own electrics, setup and music. I had a new property where the electrics were clean and conditioners added nothing. Now I have a 300 y/o property and the story has changed. The the differences are small but in my experience they are very real. I don't doubt that some people fall for the placebo affect but others are not so succeptable. I have found on a number of occasions, expensive interconnects and power chords that have disappointed me immensely. It is the complete opposite of placebo when you are expecting better and it is in fact worse. I think also that some people may listen more for a sound change when dynamics and RFI is often the main difference. As I say, the differences are small and I respect someone who is big enough to say they can't hear a difference. That respect should work both ways though and I hope it does on this forum.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

It's remarkable what the human ear can discern when provided with a familiar environment and equipment. I remember reading an article about a new top of the range mixing desk being delivered to a studio where Geoff Emmerik worked. Evidently after running a mix through it, Geof was convinced one channel was faulty. However, nobody else in the studio could hear what he was hearing. So they called the manufacturer out and they put testing equipment on the channel but this only confirmed the channel was fine. Geoff stood his ground and said it was faulty and because of his standing, this top of the profession manufacturer backed down and replaced it. Weeks later they came back and said he was right all along but the errant frequency was in the realms of bats hearing. How could Geoff hear that? It was impossible. The difference is that as an engineer he listens to how the sound reacts with other sounds. Harmonies and harmonics. Different people listen in different ways.

GE was already a legend before this incident but I am sure it didn't harm his reputation.

 

[Beolab]

It's remarkable what the human ear can discern when provided with a familiar environment and equipment. I remember reading an article about a new top of the range mixing desk being delivered to a studio where Geoff Emmerik worked. Evidently after running a mix through it, Geof was convinced one channel was faulty. However, nobody else in the studio could hear what he was hearing. So they called the manufacturer out and they put testing equipment on the channel but this only confirmed the channel was fine. Geoff stood his ground and said it was faulty and because of his standing, this top of the profession manufacturer backed down and replaced it. Weeks later they came back and said he was right all along but the errant frequency was in the realms of bats hearing. How could Geoff hear that? It was impossible. The difference is that as an engineer he listens to how the sound reacts with other sounds. Harmonies and harmonics. Different people listen in different ways.

GE was already a legend before this incident but I am sure it didn't harm his reputation.

 
I buy your story about the mixing table, probably he heard that the timing was not right or something, but this is a totally different story how the last bit of say 30 meters of poor quality cable that goes from your fuse box to your AC outlet , where the sound can be bettered if you just add 1 meter of high quality cable in the end, it is impossible!
No one have thought of RF noise absorption in the rest of the 30 meters, have you ?=)
 
If you had a filter on the cable like the Isotek Syncro EVO3 maybe, but 99% does not have this feature, think NordOst for example.
 
I know power regenerators / plants get a calmer sound in some cases, but just connecting a cable from the wall outlet and think the sound are about to get richer is so crazy as it could be. 
 
If the Power station where behind the wall i can buy it with easiness. 
 
It would be very interesting to pass this question to some one at Cambridge University or something who can test this or to the professor at KTH.

 

[Mavwong]

I said many times before. It's a bliss if one finds diff cable does not change the sound. And or one's home does not need AC filter what so ever. End result is one will save tons of money.