[Triode User]

you know what they say about assuming!

Yep, arse out of you and me.

 

[marcmccalmont]

Yep, arse out of you and me.

Hugo2 appears to behave opposite crossfeed for phono jack only

 

[AndrewOld]

I read the manual to say the crossfeed function is only available in “headphone mode” perhaps @Rob Watts can clarify?

The crossfeed mode persists even when you remove the headphone jack from the DAVE. There is no visible indication of this. It is very easy to test that this is the case. I am not one of the supposedly “lots of people” who “prefer the option to be there”. It is just a mistake. If you have been switching between a headphone setting with crossfeed and using speakers without setting the crossfeed to zero you have been listening to substantial crosstalk and distortion through your speakers. Rather than correct the manual, Chord should correct the product.

 

[marcmccalmont]

The crossfeed mode persists even when you remove the headphone jack from the DAVE. There is no visible indication of this. It is very easy to test that this is the case. I am not one of the supposedly “lots of people” who “prefer the option to be there”. It is just a mistake. If you have been switching between a headphone setting with crossfeed and using speakers without setting the crossfeed to zero you have been listening to substantial crosstalk and distortion through your speakers. Rather than correct the manual, Chord should correct the product.

I agree it apears that Hugo2 acts correctly. At least make it optional on Dave!

 

[Sonic77]

The crossfeed mode persists even when you remove the headphone jack from the DAVE. There is no visible indication of this. It is very easy to test that this is the case. I am not one of the supposedly “lots of people” who “prefer the option to be there”. It is just a mistake. If you have been switching between a headphone setting with crossfeed and using speakers without setting the crossfeed to zero you have been listening to substantial crosstalk and distortion through your speakers. Rather than correct the manual, Chord should correct the product.

Poor design maybe?

 

[Mojo ideas]

Poor design maybe?

No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time. just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!) and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.

 

[MacedonianHero]

No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time. just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!) and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.

Which is why I think the remastered Beatles stereo CDs are unlistenable unless I use my DAVE with crossfeed or I play them in mono.

 

[Mojo ideas]

Which is why I think the remastered Beatles stereo CDs are unlistenable unless I use my DAVE with crossfeed or I play them in mono.

Good case in point..... Rob told me he’ll be away from the thread said he was going to South America, Peru I believe he said something about going to find peekachoo or something. I just hope that Marmalade’s family don’t find Rob a fair and similar replacement and take him hostage......

 

[AndrewOld]

No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time. just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!) and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.

That’s utter nonsense. Your claim is absurd. You made a mistake and you should just accept that. Recording engineers, most of whom were far more talented at making recordings than you, made recordings the way they made them, and that’s the way most people want to listen to them. If Trane was recorded hard left, I’ll listen to him like that thank you very much, not with a distorted crosstalk signal on the right hand channel. If your argument is that the crossfeed setting is worthwhile in speaker mode, why is there no visible indication that it is set in this mode? Why is there no ability to change it in this mode? If you believe a controlled crosstalk facility would benefit speaker listening, why don’t you engineer it correctly? The time constants and frequency dependant crosstalk that make sense for headphone listening, which should account for the delays and masking due to two transducers on your ears are completely different from those that might be necessary for speakers that at a 60 degree angle to the listener, and which are already audible at both ears.

If I want “creative” effects then I can do them with DSP or whatever at source, and I can be in full control of them, with full knowledge that they are on. I wonder how many DAVEs out there are being listened to through speakers with gruesome crosstalk and distortion due to the inadvertent persistence of this headphone only mode? How many demos spoiled? Why haven’t you at least fixed the manual? How hard is that?

By the way, Kind of Blue was recorded to three track tape, famously running at the wrong speed such that most releases were off pitch. I still can’t believe that you are trying to justify a mistake as an attempt to improve Kind of Blue. Kind of BS imo.

 

[TheAttorney]

I agree it's a poor design - as result of leaving a mistake as is (and keeping quiet about it), instead of updating the design to correctly handle the newly discovered situation. And it's potentially irritating for users who frequently switch between headphones and loudspeakers,

Enhancement request for a future firmware update:

The CF function should be visible at all times.
DAVE remembers the last CF setting for each of the headphones and loudspeaker outputs, DAVE already does this for volume settings, so you've shown the concept is possible.

 

[Mojo ideas]

That’s utter nonsense. Your claim is absurd. You made a mistake and you should just accept that. Recording engineers, most of whom were far more talented at making recordings than you, made recordings the way they made them, and that’s the way most people want to listen to them. If Trane was recorded hard left, I’ll listen to him like that thank you very much, not with a distorted crosstalk signal on the right hand channel. If your argument is that the crossfeed setting is worthwhile in speaker mode, why is there no visible indication that it is set in this mode? Why is there no ability to change it in this mode? If you believe a controlled crosstalk facility would benefit speaker listening, why don’t you engineer it correctly? The time constants and frequency dependant crosstalk that make sense for headphone listening, which should account for the delays and masking due to two transducers on your ears are completely different from those that might be necessary for speakers that at a 60 degree angle to the listener, and which are already audible at both ears.

If I want “creative” effects then I can do them with DSP or whatever at source, and I can be in full control of them, with full knowledge that they are on. I wonder how many DAVEs out there are being listened to through speakers with gruesome crosstalk and distortion due to the inadvertent persistence of this headphone only mode? How many demos spoiled? Why haven’t you at least fixed the manual? How hard is that?

By the way, Kind of Blue was recorded to three track tape, famously running at the wrong speed such that most releases were off pitch. I still can’t believe that you are trying to justify a mistake as an attempt to improve Kind of Blue. Kind of BS imo.

Andrew I’m not making any particular claim I just told you why Rob left it the way it was yes it was a mistake on Robs part however when he demonstrated why he’d like to leave it the way it was he justified his choice and I agreed. Wether you think it’s BS is neither here or there, I just advised you why it’s, the way it is. Also I never mentioned Pitch when writing about Kind Blue I mention mic distortion at the beginning of certain tracks what you mentioned about pitch was completely irrelevant other than to justify your position with additional spurious info.

 

[marcmccalmont]

No we could have changed this but Rob and myself still have cd collections many of which have Music with instruments panned hard left or right this was a mistake of earlier recording engineers who were perhaps too enamered with “stereo” at the time. just listen to kinda blue (ignore the mic distortion on the beginning of most tracks Miles was just too close!) and you’ll see what I mean about some instruments being out of place in spacial terms. Then try the same track with Robs cross feed on one of the cross feed setting to suit your speakers .... The music is so much better that way. One demo from Rob proved the case to me and I stopped arguing with him ...... aquiecing I let him win on this one point .... yes we still argue.... it’s okay ....it’s creative.

How about making it a user selectable option? I switch between speakers and headphones a lot those poor recordings are only occasional! Are my ears correct Hugo2 does not behave this way? Would it be possible for you to modify it as above ie crossfeed behaves like volume when switched and crossfeed always displays when selected????? Please!!!!!!

A more useful function might be a filter to warm up those old poor recordings like some of my old Elvis and Beatles recordings great music poor recording. I can make them more listenable on my Hugo2

 

[AndrewOld]

Andrew I’m not making any particular claim I just told you why Rob left it the way it was yes it was a mistake on Robs part however when he demonstrated why he’d like to leave it the way it was he justified his choice and I agreed. Wether you think it’s BS is neither here or there, I just advised you why it’s, the way it is. Also I never mentioned Pitch when writing about Kind Blue I mention mic distortion at the beginning of certain tracks what you mentioned about pitch was completely irrelevant other than to justify your position with additional spurious info.

John, you did indeed make a particular claim. You claimed that listening to Kind of Blue through speakers with one of Robs crossfeed settings “The music is so much better that way”. I disagree with that. You attempted to justify leaving a mistake in your product by saying you left it in deliberately, because it improves the sound of Kind of Blue and is creative. If that is the case, why is it not documented, and why is there no visibility of it on the display? I mentioned “pitch” because there are many known issues with many releases of Kind of Blue, pitch being one of them. But of all the well-documented issues with KoB, noone has ever claimed that it should be listened through loudspeakers with the same kind of crossfeed as you use for headphones. That’s equivalent to saying you can improve a DAC by introducing massive crosstalk with a skewed frequency response. Kind of Blue has been mastered by many different people, in many different formats, with many different sound stages from mono through stereo to four channel. Leave it be. Read Ashley Kahn’s book for a great insight.

The very least you could do is fix the manual.

 

[doraymon]

Although I agree with @AndrewOld that it should at least be mentioned in the manual to avoid confusion, I just want to say "chapeaux!" to John and Rob for being so active here.
It's really a honourable commitment they made!

 

[HeeBroG]

That’s utter nonsense. Your claim is absurd. You made a mistake and you should just accept that. Recording engineers, most of whom were far more talented at making recordings than you, made recordings the way they made them, and that’s the way most people want to listen to them. If Trane was recorded hard left, I’ll listen to him like that thank you very much, not with a distorted crosstalk signal on the right hand channel. If your argument is that the crossfeed setting is worthwhile in speaker mode, why is there no visible indication that it is set in this mode? Why is there no ability to change it in this mode? If you believe a controlled crosstalk facility would benefit speaker listening, why don’t you engineer it correctly? The time constants and frequency dependant crosstalk that make sense for headphone listening, which should account for the delays and masking due to two transducers on your ears are completely different from those that might be necessary for speakers that at a 60 degree angle to the listener, and which are already audible at both ears.

If I want “creative” effects then I can do them with DSP or whatever at source, and I can be in full control of them, with full knowledge that they are on. I wonder how many DAVEs out there are being listened to through speakers with gruesome crosstalk and distortion due to the inadvertent persistence of this headphone only mode? How many demos spoiled? Why haven’t you at least fixed the manual? How hard is that?

By the way, Kind of Blue was recorded to three track tape, famously running at the wrong speed such that most releases were off pitch. I still can’t believe that you are trying to justify a mistake as an attempt to improve Kind of Blue. Kind of BS imo.