[rayl]

Interesting. I didn't know that. (Re: the Blu2 drive not handling SACDs.) I assumed it would since DAVE supports native DSD. I still don't exactly follow why, but I'll read up this about on the Blu2 thread if there is any info there. Thanks for the heads up.

DSD is an audio encoding format. SACD is more than just DSD64. It is a disc container format that actually has the DSD64 encrypted (much like a DVD). Actually there is also a compression layer after the DSD64 and before the encryption.

If you license the key, you are required to never retransmit the DSD unprotected. You can output as analog.... or, in rare cases (I can only think of one standalone transport actually), you can retransmit as digital with another protection scheme. There is no protected digital transport out of Blu2,

In many countries, bypassing this protection is prohibited by law, even aside from the contractual requirements with the key. Sony Playstation was "cracked", so in theory you can rip an SACD off of it... though, this is not legal in most developed countries, so by "can," I mean "technically able to", not "legally able to." That's why there are no SACD rippers unlike for redbook CDs.

Yes, the normal RedBook can be played off a hybrid SACD... the idea behind the marketing of SACD is to more a higher resolution version into the DSD64 layer and keep that protected.

 

[rgs9200m]

Thanks for that. But why can't the Blu2 act like any other SACD-capable transport out there into the DAVE, like Accuphase, EMM and Playback Designs, which use proprietary optical cables (as in the PD MPT-8)? These of course are meant to only work with the companion DACs from each maker.

Couldn't there be a proprietary interface between the Blu2 and the DAVE? Is it because the DAVE wasn't designed to accept this?

 

[Triode User]

DSD is an audio encoding format. SACD is more than just DSD64. It is a disc container format that actually has the DSD64 encrypted (much like a DVD). Actually there is also a compression layer after the DSD64 and before the encryption.

If you license the key, you are required to never retransmit the DSD unprotected. You can output as analog.... or, in rare cases (I can only think of one standalone transport actually), you can retransmit as digital with another protection scheme. There is no protected digital transport out of Blu2,

In many countries, bypassing this protection is prohibited by law, even aside from the contractual requirements with the key. Sony Playstation was "cracked", so in theory you can rip an SACD off of it... though, this is not legal in most developed countries, so by "can," I mean "technically able to", not "legally able to." That's why there are no SACD rippers unlike for redbook CDs.

Yes, the normal RedBook can be played off a hybrid SACD... the idea behind the marketing of SACD is to more a higher resolution version into the DSD64 layer and keep that protected.

Ah, very interesting. And although I obviously trusted what you were saying I went off to look at the spec of a disk transport that plays SACD for output to a DAC. Their product description says,
"DMP opens the long restricted DSD layer of SACD to PS Audio DACs. Through a unique code-handshake, DMP will deliver the raw DSD layer of copyright protected SACD directly into your PS Audio DAC."

So their 'unique handshake' means that the DSD is not retransmitted unprotected.

You learn something everyday.

As an aside, I came across a DVD A disk that had some high resolution music on it that sounded very good played through another player but which of course would not play on Blu2. I simply copied the Hi Res files over to my hard drive using a DVD input connected to the iMac and streamed them to the Blu2. The Blu2Dave made the music even more magical than through the player + DAC that could handle DVD A disks direct. I can count the number of DVA A disks that I have come across on the fingers of one hand so this is no big deal with Blu2.

 

[tunes]

FWIW Amazon stocks the AudioQuest Diamond usb with amazon fulfillment... so one can always try it and return if no go.

(I am not an AQ owner nor hater, so no agenda here...just info that may be helpful...)

Has anyone tried the grounding system called Entreq??


http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm

 

[Triode User]

Has anyone tried the grounding system called Entreq??


http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/entreq.htm

Haha, NO.

And as Rob Watts might say, do not get me started about that!

 

[rayl]

Thanks for that. But why can't the Blu2 act like any other SACD-capable transport out there into the DAVE, like Accuphase, EMM and Playback Designs, which use proprietary optical cables (as in the PD MPT-8)? These of course are meant to only work with the companion DACs from each maker.

Couldn't there be a proprietary interface between the Blu2 and the DAVE? Is it because the DAVE wasn't designed to accept this?

Ah I stand corrected on this. It seems like others now also use the model of a proprietary digital interface.. many yrs ago, in my quest, I found that only PS did it. I’ve lost interest in SACDs since then and haven’t been following the market.

But Blu2, DAVE does not today.

 

[rgs9200m]

By the way, it is now possible to rip SACD discs to DSD files using recent generation Oppo 103/105 or Cambridge 752 or some Pioneer BluRay players. CA has a huge thread about this. The Sony playstation is no longer needed. These players are available with a little searching on the used market.

It's a bit intricate, but it seems fairly straightforward once you get the hang of it. At least that's what the thread says.

Thanks again Rayl for your insight.

 

[ray-dude]

But with a PS3 you can play Little Big Planet! (even if you have 250+ SACDs to rip, eventually you catch up)

Kidding aside, easy as can be to rip with the PS3 (if you have the right one at the right firmware level), as well as with the supported BluRay players. Takes about 20 minutes per SACD to rip. I'm hopeful Roon eventually will support SACD ISO's, but Audirvana handles them just fine

 

[rgs9200m]

Ray-dude, LOL! Not to belabor this, is just seems odd that the DAVE can play DSD natively but not accept DSD-disc (SACD) input from any source, even the Blu2.

I used to have the EMM DCC2 dac back in 2004 that could handle SACD discs from the modified Phillips SACD 1000 (an early SACD player) or the EMM CDSD transport. You had the choice of the EMM Optical Fiber cables or even Coax.

 

[rgs9200m]

I guess I should modify my original question to ask how a Blu2 + DAVE combo sounds with DSD files.
Does the native DSD processing on the DAVE still function?
And does playback in this mode (if possible) sound better than direct playback of DSD files through DAVE in DSD mode?

[I'm only asking this because I have a DAVE along with an SACD collection, so it matters to me.]

 

[ray-dude]

Any time you're dealing with licensing, esp. for a format that realistically has run its course, there's motivation to not deal with it. The DSD spec is open, but the SACD implementation is most definitely not.

On my infinite to do list is to come up with a Roon endpoint config that can output HDMI multi-channel audio to my AVR for the surround layer in my SACD ISOs (and BluRay ISOs and DVD-A ISOs). Until then, I just play my multi channel SACDs on my PS3.

For the 2 channel stuff, DAVE (and especially BluDAVE) do wonderfully well with the ripped redbook layer from my SACDs, so I haven't been motivated to access the DSD64 2 channel SACD layer in my SACD ISOs. Ripped redbook SACD layer vs DSD64 2 channel SACD layer hasn't been enough of a delta to matter (at least for me).

 

[rgs9200m]

Well, it seems regardless, it's worth getting a Blu2 for your DAVE if you have any decent disc collection of any type (or even just ripped files).
True or not?
Thanks again.

 

[ray-dude]

I guess I should modify my original question to ask how a Blu2 + DAVE combo sounds with DSD files.
Does the native DSD processing on the DAVE still function?
And does playback in this mode (if possible) sound better than direct playback of DSD files through DAVE in DSD mode?

[I'm only asking this because I have a DAVE along with an SACD collection, so it matters to me.]

I believe with Blu2, the input to DAVE is 24/768kHz PCM, not any sort of DSD on PCM. You would keep the DAVE in PCM Plus mode with HF filter off. Based on my naive read of the DAVE block diagrams, DAVE would only be applying crossfeed (if any) and volume control to the signal from the Blu2.

With the Blu2, I believe it is converting to PCM as a first step, but that is from a vague memory (unfortunately, I did not save a link to that discussion). I'm sure others can answer your question more definitively.

I have not done a rigorous DSD64 (from SACD rip) vs Redbook (from hybrid SACD rip) comparison, but in the past that has been challenging for me since the redbook layer and SACD layers may be mastered differently. If you have a reference SACD, let me know and I can see if I have it. I can give DSD vs redbook PCM a quick audition for you.

 

[ray-dude]

Well, it seems regardless, it's worth getting a Blu2 for your DAVE if you have any decent disc collection of any type (or even just ripped files).
True or not?
Thanks again.

Oh hell yeah! I put out a 10k word opus detailing why (link in my .sig) Revelatory.

 

[rgs9200m]

Yep, I read your awesome epic on the Blu2. That's what has the Blu in my sights. Thanks again.
I would hope that Chord can confirm that with the Blu that DAVE must be in PCM+ mode (or not).

And I'm assuming that you can still keep your USB input to DAVE active as an alternate source vs. the Blu (so you can use DAVE in DSD mode for DSD files).