CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Jan 6, 2017 at 12:44 AM Post #6,496 of 25,834
   
Upon re-reading your post, I understand it better.  Could the Blu Mk II do more than 164,000 TAPS with another DAC (like the MSB Select or even a Mojo)?  This would be interesting if it did as the combo would effectively be superior to DAVE by itself.  It would also give non-Chord DACs the potential to be better than the DAVE and so it would be very surprising to me if that's the case.  I will know more tomorrow as I will get to hear the Blu Mk II for myself at CES 
normal_smile%20.gif
.


​Rob Watts can probably explain it better and more accurately. I think of taps as a surrogate of the processing power used to do the upsampling or a surrogate of how accurate the digital waveform is to the original recorded analog signal.
 
So Chord DAVE uses 164000 taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz and then from 704kHz to 11.2MHz. So that's 256fs. The 11.2MHz is further upsampled to 104MHz using simpler FIR filters.
Blu Mk II uses 1 million taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz. And that's 16fs.
If you hook up Blu Mk II to DAVE, you'll probably end up using 1 million taps to go from 44.1kHz to 704kHz from Blu and then another 82000 taps? from DAVE to go from 704kHz to 11.2MHz.
 
If you hook up Blu Mk II to another DAC that takes 352kHz signal, you're probably using 750,000 taps from the Blu. If it's hooked up to an MSB or other R2R DAC, it's all you'll get because R2R DACs can't switch faster the 352kHz. If you hook up the Blu Mk II to say a Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC, it'll probably take the 352kHz signal and just use simple FIR filter to upsample to say 5MHz and output that signal. So essentially, you're only getting the 750,000 taps from the Blu up to 8fs and virtually nothing from the other DACs.
 
Rob Watts already said that part of the reason why Hugo and subsequently DAVE's timing sounds better is because he want from 4fs WTA filter to Hugo's 16fs to DAVE's 256fs. So using Blu's 8fs 750,000 taps with other DACs probably would lose some timing accuracy compared to using them with DAVE.
 
Moreover, as we know, DAVE is not just about the tap length and the upsampling WTA filter. It has very sophisticated 17th order noise shaper. It uses a unique DC servo with the FPGA to remove extraneous capacitors for better transparency. I see this technology is now incorporated into the Hugo 2. And it's 20-element pulse array DAC has low noise floor and no noise floor modulation. Moreover, it has a sophisticated power supply and goes for a very transparent low noise circuitry and components.
 
Hence, I doubt people would prefer Blu + non-DAVE DAC over Blu + DAVE. Heck, I even suspect most discerning people won't prefer Blu + non-DAVE DAC over DAVE alone. That said, we have seen in the forums that many people have different preferences for DACs. As much as Rob Watts try to espouse the sonic and technical advantages of DAVE over DSD/R2R and SDM DAC chip designs, we see people swear by their favorite DSD/R2R/SDM DAC chip DAC. That's why I suggested that for those who just love their non-Chord DACs, they may still be able to benefit from the Blu.
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 1:59 AM Post #6,498 of 25,834
 
​Rob Watts can probably explain it better and more accurately. I think of taps as a surrogate of the processing power used to do the upsampling or a surrogate of how accurate the digital waveform is to the original recorded analog signal.
 
So Chord DAVE uses 164000 taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz and then from 704kHz to 11.2MHz. So that's 256fs. The 11.2MHz is further upsampled to 104MHz using simpler FIR filters.
Blu Mk II uses 1 million taps to upsample from 44.1kHz to 704kHz. And that's 16fs.
If you hook up Blu Mk II to DAVE, you'll probably end up using 1 million taps to go from 44.1kHz to 704kHz from Blu and then another 82000 taps? from DAVE to go from 704kHz to 11.2MHz.
 
If you hook up Blu Mk II to another DAC that takes 352kHz signal, you're probably using 750,000 taps from the Blu. If it's hooked up to an MSB or other R2R DAC, it's all you'll get because R2R DACs can't switch faster the 352kHz. If you hook up the Blu Mk II to say a Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC, it'll probably take the 352kHz signal and just use simple FIR filter to upsample to say 5MHz and output that signal. So essentially, you're only getting the 750,000 taps from the Blu up to 8fs and virtually nothing from the other DACs.
 
Rob Watts already said that part of the reason why Hugo and subsequently DAVE's timing sounds better is because he want from 4fs WTA filter to Hugo's 16fs to DAVE's 256fs. So using Blu's 8fs 750,000 taps with other DACs probably would lose some timing accuracy compared to using them with DAVE.
 
Moreover, as we know, DAVE is not just about the tap length and the upsampling WTA filter. It has very sophisticated 17th order noise shaper. It uses a unique DC servo with the FPGA to remove extraneous capacitors for better transparency. I see this technology is now incorporated into the Hugo 2. And it's 20-element pulse array DAC has low noise floor and no noise floor modulation. Moreover, it has a sophisticated power supply and goes for a very transparent low noise circuitry and components.
 
Hence, I doubt people would prefer Blu + non-DAVE DAC over Blu + DAVE. Heck, I even suspect most discerning people won't prefer Blu + non-DAVE DAC over DAVE alone. That said, we have seen in the forums that many people have different preferences for DACs. As much as Rob Watts try to espouse the sonic and technical advantages of DAVE over DSD/R2R and SDM DAC chip designs, we see people swear by their favorite DSD/R2R/SDM DAC chip DAC. That's why I suggested that for those who just love their non-Chord DACs, they may still be able to benefit from the Blu.

You explained it well.  Thanks.
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 3:51 AM Post #6,500 of 25,834
Romaz is refering that the new Blu-CD Transport Mk II will have a mighty 1 million taps if connected to DAVE !!





http://www.head-fi.org/t/831343/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread/0_50

Second release:


Hugo 2 for our cheap friend @Christer :wink:
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugo-2/

Third release:
A MicroRendu competitor with Roon / battery named:
Poly

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/poly/


Thanks for the news Beolab, "your cheap friend" is all ears as the saying goes and will definitely audition HUGO 2 ASAP.
I have to confess that I was a bit tempted to buy your second-hand DAVE  though.
But yes I am very keen to hear what improvements over HUGO the new model will deliver on DEMANDING densely scored acoustic music which for me remains the ONE AND ONLY REFERENCE POINT after the real thing.
I haven´t been to any live concerts for over three weeks now and I am gradually adapting to the limitations of both headphone listening and HUGO. But every step  closer to the real thing is appreciated by me provided they don´t charge ridiculous money for this upgrade. I am still very much " the cheap friend".
Is there any news when samples will be available for audition in Asia?
I will be in Asia until at least late April, maybe longer.
The nearest big city for me will probably be Bangkok in early February. Anybody here who knows if there are any CHORD reps there?
God fortsättning på det nya året Christer
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 4:22 AM Post #6,501 of 25,834
  and the upcoming digital amp

are you talking about the Hugo TT external power amp? or we are getting new one? :D
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 6:09 AM Post #6,502 of 25,834
This must be a proud day for Rob. Ever since he calculated all those years ago that it would take 1m taps to perfectly recreate the analogue wave form it has been a journey to this day. Well done Rob. Congratulations!

The mind boggles to think that with 164,000 taps Dave Dac was almost universally acclaimed by the great and the good to be the best the best Dac in the world. This latest accomplishment is exciting news.
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 6:37 AM Post #6,504 of 25,834
  may be there is a upgrade of dave in near future with 1M taps , considering the flurry of updates every ear.


+1
 
Though I'm still confused about the Blu 2. But there's no way I'm going back to playing cds in 2017 so despite having a DAVE I have no interest in the Blu2. A streamer for the DAVE would be good, maybe the Poly could be developed into one.  And if you can make a box that can upsample what's on a cd with a 1million tap filter, you can surely make a box that does the same for ripped cds or streamed music.
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 6:51 AM Post #6,506 of 25,834
i thought blu mk2  has digital input so one can feed ripped red book to blue mk2 and upsample and then again feed upsampled data to dave.


That's my understanding too
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 7:04 AM Post #6,507 of 25,834
  i thought blu mk2  has digital input so one can feed ripped red book to blue mk2 and upsample and then again feed upsampled data to dave.


Oh ok. So, it doesn't have a USB input .. so I would need to buy a USB to s/pdif converter to connect it to my laptop .. then connect it to my DAVE .. and waste a fortune on all the redundant CD mechanism and electronics. Sorry, just not going to do that under any circumstances. Hope there will be a more elegant solution for those who use ripped or streamed media to play their music and want the million tap logic. It is 2017.  Why can't DAVE do the full up sampling? Or is a million tap DAVE just around the corner?
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 7:15 AM Post #6,508 of 25,834
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/739-ces-2017-nice-surprises/

So computer Audiophile website talked about a few new products at CES but also took some photos of Rob Watts PowerPoint slides on Blu and Hugo 2. Basically, 1 million taps mean 10A to run on the FPGA chip which means it is too noisy to be part of DAVE. And there is a non-CD external upsampler in the pipeline for other sources.
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 7:33 AM Post #6,509 of 25,834
Haha Everyone is happy!
 
Jan 6, 2017 at 8:01 AM Post #6,510 of 25,834
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/739-ces-2017-nice-surprises/

So computer Audiophile website talked about a few new products at CES but also took some photos of Rob Watts PowerPoint slides on Blu and Hugo 2. Basically, 1 million taps mean 10A to run on the FPGA chip which means it is too noisy to be part of DAVE. And there is a non-CD external upsampler in the pipeline for other sources.


Good news about the external upsampler - how do you know that?!
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top