CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Sep 28, 2016 at 6:54 PM Post #4,906 of 25,885
I'm a very happy Chord DAVE DAC owner of approximately 4 months and was wondering how fellow DAVE owners have it connected to their speakers.

I have been primarily connecting it in DAC mode running through my Music First Audio Classic MKII Passive Transformer pre-amplifier as I still listen to vinyl and during a short A-B of the DAVE in DAC v Pre-amplifier found I lost some dynamics with the DAVE using its pre-amplifier.

I understand this is counter intuitive as the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode should be more direct, however my MFA pre-amplifier is as neutral as you can get, I will do more exhaustive A-B listening in the immediate future, however was wondering how other DAVE owners had configured it in their speaker setup?


I don't yet have a DAVE (still saving) but I have tested a number of DAC's with both analogue and digital volume controls thus enabling them to used as preamps, in my 2 channel system.

While some aspects of the sound seem to improve running DAC direct to the power amp (Pass Labs X250.5) like the sharpness of the attack on acoustic guitar notes, I find the soundstage collapses vertically and narrows horizontally, with less sense of instrument placement within the soundstage. There is also what seems to be an added brightness, albeit slight. To me they are the most noticeable differences.

Was the smaller sound stage and blurred instrument position information 'real' ie: more true to the recording and what the preamp adds 'synthetic'? Is my preamp warming up the sound? I don't know. But I listen to music for enjoyment and I'm yet to hear a DAC that to me sounds better direct than running through my preamp.
 
Sep 29, 2016 at 4:50 AM Post #4,907 of 25,885
Watermad
I didn't AB due to lack of space and but it would be interesting to try. I will dig out my MFA BRII when I get the chance. I doubt that will be before the Ryder Cup though! :smile:
 
Sep 29, 2016 at 4:04 PM Post #4,909 of 25,885
 
I'm a very happy Chord DAVE DAC owner of approximately 4 months and was wondering how fellow DAVE owners have it connected to their speakers.

I have been primarily connecting it in DAC mode running through my Music First Audio Classic MKII Passive Transformer pre-amplifier as I still listen to vinyl and during a short A-B of the DAVE in DAC v Pre-amplifier found I lost some dynamics with the DAVE using its pre-amplifier.

I understand this is counter intuitive as the DAVE in pre-amplifier mode should be more direct, however my MFA pre-amplifier is as neutral as you can get, I will do more exhaustive A-B listening in the immediate future, however was wondering how other DAVE owners had configured it in their speaker setup?


I don't yet have a DAVE (still saving) but I have tested a number of DAC's with both analogue and digital volume controls thus enabling them to used as preamps, in my 2 channel system.

While some aspects of the sound seem to improve running DAC direct to the power amp (Pass Labs X250.5) like the sharpness of the attack on acoustic guitar notes, I find the soundstage collapses vertically and narrows horizontally, with less sense of instrument placement within the soundstage. There is also what seems to be an added brightness, albeit slight. To me they are the most noticeable differences.

Was the smaller sound stage and blurred instrument position information 'real' ie: more true to the recording and what the preamp adds 'synthetic'? Is my preamp warming up the sound? I don't know. But I listen to music for enjoyment and I'm yet to hear a DAC that to me sounds better direct than running through my preamp.

 
There's one specific scenario where adding a headphone amp to the DAVE for a headphone it could easily drive with respect to the power reserves theoretically could yield some benefit: power peaks straining the internal power supply, whereas the external amp is able to supply the corresponding power easier and faster. So this advantage is able to outweigh the complication of the signal path due to additional electronics with their own harmonic-distortion pattern. It's just a theoretical scenario, and I don't give much credit to it.
 
Now, adding a preamplifier to the DAVE for «driving» a power amplifier's input makes even less sense. Both power amp and preamp have about the same input impedance (let's say between 25 and 100 kΩ). So there's no way for the preamp to «disburden» the DAVE's output stage: In both cases it has to «drive» about the same load. Hence the bitter thruth is that your preamp adds euphonic distortion, making the sound more forgiving (and less transparent, also to tonal flaws in the chain).
 
But you're not alone in this situation. Years ago, during my extensive speaker-builder phase, I replaced my then preamp (I believe it was a Conrad Johnson PV6) by a homegrown, resistor-based passive attenuator. The higher accuracy and transparency were immediately noticeable, but it was a desaster nonetheless: My carefully fine-tuned speaker prototypes suddenly sounded out of balance. So the crossover-network needed some (time-consuming) rework and even higher perfectionism. After that the system sounded better than before. It's a phenomenon I'm meanwhile quite familiar with – as someone who only listens through headphones these days. I have to mention that I use equalizing for all of my headphones. With a headphone amp in the signal chain, the sound is fine with all of them from the start, but gets even better with a matching EQ curve. Without the amp, driven by one of my Chord DACs, the EQ curves are much more critical, thus I have to take much more care for a satisfying result. But it will be better than through any of my amps in the end.
 
I'm not sure if that's of any help for you, especially if you renounce equalizing for some reason or the other, which still leaves you dependent on the synergetic effect from your preamp in the form of forgivingness and warming. I don't think a forgiving cable would be a good idea either, as it would reduce transparency as well.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 1:56 AM Post #4,910 of 25,885
There's one specific scenario where adding a headphone amp to the DAVE for a headphone it could easily drive with respect to the power reserves theoretically could yield some benefit: power peaks straining the internal power supply, whereas the external amp is able to supply the corresponding power easier and faster. So this advantage is able to outweigh the complication of the signal path due to additional electronics with their own harmonic-distortion pattern. It's just a theoretical scenario, and I don't give much credit to it.

Now, adding a preamplifier to the DAVE for «driving» a power amplifier's input makes even less sense. Both power amp and preamp have about the same input impedance (let's say between 25 and 100 kΩ). So there's no way for the preamp to «disburden» the DAVE's output stage: In both cases it has to «drive» about the same load. Hence the bitter thruth is that your preamp adds euphonic distortion, making the sound more forgiving (and less transparent, also to tonal flaws in the chain).

But you're not alone in this situation. Years ago, during my extensive speaker-builder phase, I replaced my then preamp (I believe it was a Conrad Johnson PV6) by a homegrown, resistor-based passive attenuator. The higher accuracy and transparency were immediately noticeable, but it was a desaster nonetheless: My carefully fine-tuned speaker prototypes suddenly sounded out of balance. So the crossover-network needed some (time-consuming) rework and even higher perfectionism. After that the system sounded better than before. It's a phenomenon I'm meanwhile quite familiar with – as someone who only listens through headphones these days. I have to mention that I use equalizing for all of my headphones. With a headphone amp in the signal chain, the sound is fine with all of them from the start, but gets even better with a matching EQ curve. Without the amp, driven by one of my Chord DACs, the EQ curves are much more critical, thus I have to take much more care for a satisfying result. But it will be better than through any of my amps in the end.

I'm not sure if that's of any help for you, especially if you renounce equalizing for some reason or the other, which still leaves you dependent on the synergetic effect from your preamp in the form of forgivingness and warming. I don't think a forgiving cable would be a good idea either, as it would reduce transparency as well.


Hmm interesting. what about the lack of soundstage and poor sense of instrument placement running DAC direct? My criticisms weren't just of harder/sharper tonality, the soundstage collapses without my preamp in place. Perhaps the DAVE won't have this issue?

I'd like to know if Rob has AB'd the DAVE as DAC direct vs a Chord preamp
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 2:57 AM Post #4,911 of 25,885
driving a power amp directly through chord dacs takes some time of getting used to the sound. I feed my hugo directly to a power amp which has low gain setting . and I would say imho initially the combo sounded a bit forward . I use speakers instead of headphones though. analog attenuation affects the higher frequencies and also the phase distortion ( as far as I know ) therefore music loses some pace at low volumes. digital attenuation does not have this problem. however too much digital attenuation reduces resolution. in case of Dave and even hugo/mojo the digital volume control has much more accuracy and does not lose bits even at very low volumes.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 3:35 AM Post #4,912 of 25,885
Hmm interesting. what about the lack of soundstage and poor sense of instrument placement running DAC direct? My criticisms weren't just of harder/sharper tonality, the soundstage collapses without my preamp in place. Perhaps the DAVE won't have this issue?

I'd like to know if Rob has AB'd the DAVE as DAC direct vs a Chord preamp


What you need a pre-amp for if you can use the Dave also as a pre-amp? So basically you're looking to have an other pre-amp on top of a pre-amp. Doesn't make much sense to me.

But if you're worried about sound quality loss, best is to take your pre-amp with you to someone who has a Chord Dave and listen for differences. That is best way to get your answer.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 3:54 AM Post #4,913 of 25,885
driving a power amp directly through chord dacs takes some time of getting used to the sound. I feed my hugo directly to a power amp which has low gain setting . and I would say imho initially the combo sounded a bit forward . I use speakers instead of headphones though. analog attenuation affects the higher frequencies and also the phase distortion ( as far as I know ) therefore music loses some pace at low volumes. digital attenuation does not have this problem. however too much digital attenuation reduces resolution. in case of Dave and even hugo/mojo the digital volume control has much more accuracy and does not lose bits even at very low volumes.


My current DAC in the HiFi system is a NAD M51. It has a digital volume that doesn't lose resolution until -66 db. That is basically inaudiblely soft.

Connected direct to the power amp sounds as you describe, forward. As I said before it's also hard, a little bright, and has poor soundstage. Many reviews of DAC's that have volume attenuation have their capabilities as a preamp tested and I've yet to find a reviewer who found DAC-direct better overall. If you're aware of any that prefer it please link me!


What you need a pre-amp for if you can use the Dave also as a pre-amp? So basically you're looking to have an other pre-amp on top of a pre-amp. Doesn't make much sense to me.

But if you're worried about sound quality loss, best is to take your pre-amp with you to someone who has a Chord Dave and listen for differences. That is best way to get your answer.


The DAVE, as I understand it, is a DAC that also has a headphone amp function and preamp function. I have a woo audio WA5 and I don't think much this side of 9k AUD touches it for driving my HE1000's. I won't be moving it on when I get a DAVE DAC, I'll be running the DAVE into it. I won't be using the DAVE in the HIFI initially but would be interested in hearing from people who have used it as a preamp vs using it as a DAC only.

My point I guess is that it might be a world leading DAC but an average headamp (vs something decent like a Cavalli LAu or Woo WA5) and an OK Preamp. I don't know as I haven't seen those aspects of it specifically discussed and compared with reasonably high end competitors. On that note I am yet to see a review of a volume attenuating DAC that anyone preferred direct into power amps vs using a preamp. From what I've read the sound is sweeter, airier, natural and spacious with a dedicated preamp.

I don't know anyone with a DAVE so i cant hear one for myself yet. Hope that makes sense.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 4:03 AM Post #4,914 of 25,885
My current DAC in the HiFi system is a NAD M51. It has a digital volume that doesn't lose resolution until -66 db. That is basically inaudiblely soft.

Connected direct to the power amp sounds as you describe, forward. As I said before it's also hard, a little bright, and has poor soundstage. Many reviews of DAC's that have volume attenuation have their capabilities as a preamp tested and I've yet to find a reviewer who found DAC-direct better overall. If you're aware of any that prefer it please link me!
The DAVE, as I understand it, is a DAC that also has a headphone amp function and preamp function. I have a woo audio WA5 and I don't think much this side of 9k AUD touches it for driving my HE1000's. I won't be moving it on when I get a DAVE DAC. I won't be using the DAVE in the HIFI initially but would be interested in hearing from people who have used it as a preamp vs using it as a DAC only. My point I guess is that it might be a world leading DAC but an average headamp and Preamp. I don't know as I haven't seen those aspects of it specifically discussed and compared. I don't know anyone with a DAVE so i cant hear one for myself yet. Hope that makes sense.


That's the thing you don't understand. The DAVE, as with all of Chord's current DACs, does not have any sperate pre-amp or amp built in. The genius behind the design is that you are hearing the line out from the DAC 100% of the time, even through the headphones. In fact the RCA out and headphone out basically share the same path. The volume is digitally controlled.

Rob has designed it this way for the sake of transparency as the more components you have in the signal path the less transparent it is to the source. His DACs are very different from conventional DACs and not just for the use of FPGA for his WTA filter, or his own Pulse Array DAC he invented, but also being able to forego the separate amp components because of the stellar measured performance of the DAC. He has confirmed many times that the only OP stage is the critical I/V conversion, which is basically the line out.

This is a quote from the Hugo thread but basically the same principal applies to the DAVE, of course not including improvements or discoveries he's made since:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/702787/chord-hugo/1830#post_10459450

I have been seeing some comments describing Hugo as excellent DAC with a good headphone amp. Both comments, in my view, are wrong and way off the mark - and seeing these comments are starting to bug me, so I would like to get it off my chest. So forgive me if I am overstepping the mark - commenting on honest posts about a product I have designed, but I thought it might be useful for Head-fi'rs to read my views.

First, I would like to talk about what as a designer I am trying to accomplish, as it has a bearing on one's opinion of Hugo's sound. Imagine going around CES and carefully listening to all the high end hi-fi on show, so you can carefully listen to all the major high end brands available today. Next, listen center stage row 10 to an orchestra. Now, in my opinion, high end Hi-fi sounds from very bad to absolutely awful compared to live acoustic music. The key difference in the sound is variability - live acoustic music has unbelievable variations in the perception of space, timbre, dynamics and rhythm. Additionally, each instrument sounds separate and as distinct entities. By comparison, high-end audio is severely compressed - depth of sound stage is limited to a few feet (listen to off stage effects in say Mahler first - in a concert the off stage effects sound a couple of hundred feet away but on a hi-fi it is an ambient sound a few feet away). Timbre is compressed - you don't get a really rich and smooth instrument playing at the same time as something bright. The biggest problem is the dominance effect - the loudest instrument is the one that drags your attention away - this constant see-saw of attention is the biggest reason for listening fatigue, a major problem with Hi-fi.

So I am approaching designing of Hi-fi from the POV of accepting that there are enormous differences between conventional Hi-Fi and real music, and that I want my equipment to be as transparent as possible. Now some peoples idea of transparency is to use distortion to artificially enhance the sound, and this is a real problem with listening tests - a superficially brighter sound, giving the impression of better detail resolution, is often distortion. So a real challenge is defining what true transparency is. My definition, is to latch onto the idea of variations - if a modification makes the sound more variable, then its more expressive, and hence more transparent, even if it sounds, in tonal balance, darker or smoother and superficially less impressive. Now, if you think that your Hi-Fi sounds better than live acoustic music - then fine, we will agree to disagree. You are looking for a sculpted sound, not a truly transparent one, and I would strongly advise never to buy equipment designed by myself, as I am striving for equipment with no added sound.

So how does this relate to Hugo? Hugo was on the tail end of a long series of incremental improvements in digital design. I have spent the last 7 years on R and D to fundamentally improve aspects of DAC performance - improvements in the jitter rejection, RF noise filtering, noise shaper topologies, WTA filter length, analogue design plus a lot of other things. Moreover, Hugo took advantage of a big step forward in the capabilities of FPGA's - I could do important things that I knew influenced the sound but that previously were not possible due to FPGA limitations. So Hugo was at the confluence of two events - a big step forward from 7 years work in understanding digital design plus a major step forward in FPGA capability. It is just an accident that it happened with a portable headphone product.

So Hugo was the first instance when all these improvements came together. When I finally heard the pre-production unit with all the improvements in place I could not believe the sound quality improvements that I first heard. It completely changed my expectations of what was possible from digital audio - I was hearing things that I have never heard from Hi-fi ever - in other words, the gap from Hi-fi to live acoustic music was suddenly very much closer. Most notable was rapid rhythms being reproduced with breathtaking clarity - before piano music sounded like a jumble of notes, now I could hear each key being played distinctly. The next major change was timbre variations - suddenly each instrument had their own distinct timbre qualities, and the loudest instrument dominance effect was gone. Also gone was listening fatigue - I can listen for 12 hours quite happily.

But by far the biggest change was not sound quality, but on the musicality. I found myself listening and enjoying much more music, in a way I have never experienced before with a new design (and anybody who knows something of my designing career knows that is a lot of designs). 

So my conclusion is this: Hugo does things that no other DAC at any price point does. Now I can say readers saying, well OK he would say that anyway, it's his baby. True - I can't argue with that POV. But let's examine the facts:

1. The interpolation filter is key to recreating the amplitude and timing of the original recording. We know the ear/brain can resolve 4uS of timing - that is 250 kHz sampling rate. To recreate the original timing and amplitude perfectly, you need infinite tap lengths FIR filters. That is a mathematical certainty. Hugo has the largest tap length by far of any other production DAC available at any price.

2. RF noise has a major influence in sound quality, and digital DAC's create a lot of noise. Hugo has the most efficient digital filtering of any other production DAC - it filters with a 3 stage filter at 2048 FS. The noise shapers run at 104 MHz, some 20 times faster than all other DAC's (excepting my previous designs). What does this mean? RF noise at 1 MHz is 1000 times lower than all other DAC's, so noise floor modulation effects are dramatically reduced, giving a much smoother and more natural sound quality.

3. The lack of DAC RF OP noise means that the analogue section can be made radically simpler as the analogue filter requirements are smaller. Now in analogue terms, making it simpler, with everything else being constant, gives more transparency. You really can hear every solder joint, every passive component, and every active stage. Now Hugo has a single active stage - a very high performance op-amp with a discrete op-stage as a hybrid with a single global feedback path. This arrangement means that you have a single active stage, two resistors and two capacitors in the direct signal path -  and that is it. Note: there is no headphone drive. Normal high performance DAC's have 3 op-amp stages, followed by a separate headphone amp. So to conclude - Hugo's analogue path is not a simple couple of op-amps chucked together, it is fundamentally simpler than all other headphone amp solutions.

This brings me on to my biggest annoyance - the claim that Hugo's amp is merely good. Firstly, no body can possibly know how good the headphone amp in Hugo is, because there is not a separate headphone stage as such - its integrated into the DAC function directly. You can't remove the sound of the headphone amp from the sound of the DAC, it's one and the same.

Struck by these reports, I decided to investigate, as I see reported problems as a way of improving things in the future. I want to find weakness, my desire is to improve. So I tried loading the OP whilst listening on line level (set to 3v RMS). With 300 ohm, you can hear absolutely no change in sound. Running with 33 ohm, you can hear a small degradation - its slightly brighter. This is consistent with THD going from 0.0004% to 0.0007%. Note these distortion figures are way smaller than desktop headphone amps. Also note that with real headphones at this level you would be at typically ear deafening 115dB SPL. Plugging in real headphones (at much lower levels) gives no change in sound quality too. This has been reported by other posters - adding multiple headphones to Hugo does not degrade sound at all.

So how do we reconcile reports that desktop headphone amps sound better? I don't believe they do, its a case of altering the sound to suit somebody's taste. Now as I said at the beginning of this post, that is not what I want to do - I want things to sound transparent, so that we can get closer to the sound of live acoustic music. Adding an extra headphone amp will only make things worse as extra components degrades transparency. Another possibility is that people are responding against Hugo's unusually (for a headphone amp) low output impedance of 0.075 ohms. Now, compared to headphone amps of 2 to 33 ohms impedance, this will make the sound much leaner with less bass. Additionally, the improvements in damping can be heard as a much tighter bass with a faster tempo. So if you find your headphone too lean, the problem is not Hugo's drive - your headphone is just been driven correctly.                 

Just to close to all Hugo owners - enjoy! I hope you get as much fun from your music as I have done with Hugo. 

* Bold emphasis added by me *
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 5:00 AM Post #4,915 of 25,885
@phonyx, can't say of nad51 but when I fed hugo directly to benchmark ahb2 power amp it was huge improvement over the previous integrated I was using. this way even at low volume hugo maintains much better bass and treble details as compared to integrated amp. if one is not used to those details at low volumes, it may be perceived as forwardness which is not actually there. in fact I also got better imaging even at lower volumes by feeding direct to power amp. the effect of digital volume control is imho more linear over the frequency spectrum as compared to pre of integrated amp. it is something to do also with output impedance of chord dacs which remains constant low at all volumes rather than analog attenuation in which the power amp sees variable impedance.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 6:07 AM Post #4,916 of 25,885


Thanks for the link. I don't know what to think now really. Perhaps my current DAC is just appallingly inadequate as a direct source for my power amp vs a Hugo or Dave. Perhaps maybe I like euphonic sound as well... Which means money would be wasted buying a Dave...

@phonyx, can't say of nad51 but when I fed hugo directly to benchmark ahb2 power amp it was huge improvement over the previous integrated I was using. this way even at low volume hugo maintains much better bass and treble details as compared to integrated amp. if one is not used to those details at low volumes, it may be perceived as forwardness which is not actually there. in fact I also got better imaging even at lower volumes by feeding direct to power amp. the effect of digital volume control is imho more linear over the frequency spectrum as compared to pre of integrated amp. it is something to do also with output impedance of chord dacs which remains constant low at all volumes rather than analog attenuation in which the power amp sees variable impedance.


Thanks for your perspective @rkt31. I don't know how my DAC (which wasn't expensive) compares to a Hugo. I think I might have to get one used and try it out.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 6:16 AM Post #4,917 of 25,885
Thanks for the link. I don't know what to think now really. Perhaps my current DAC is just appallingly inadequate as a direct source for my power amp vs a Hugo or Dave. Perhaps maybe I like euphonic sound as well... Which means money would be wasted buying a Dave...


I really wish you had a chance to demo the DAVE. To my ears it's very analogue and natural sounding vs anything else I've heard, with ample power on tap. Honestly, I don't think I've heard a digital source sound so analogue and realistic. Euphonic to my ears, and I've extensively demo'd a Liquid Crimson amp and have a LAu on order from the final batch, but I truly feel it isn't warranted, at least my headphones don't require the extra juice from the LAu (I purchased it before DAVE.... long build time on the LAu). If you've read this thread there are many comments that are similar.

On Headphone Guru Frank noted very little difference when adding his LAu to the DAVE. Again, it would be best if you could audition one.

Oh, and in general, the Hugo will not give you a sense of the DAVE's tonality. Maybe a glimpse in to the capabilities of Rob's designs but the DAVE is really in a different class.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 6:53 AM Post #4,918 of 25,885
As described by x RELIC x, the DAVE plays on an even higher level, but I'm a fan of the Hugo nonetheless. It may have a slightly bright timbre, but it would be a pity if it was judged just by the degree of synergy with the rest of the system. The ideal case would be a system with adjustable tonal balance, hence independency from component synergy (with the sound transducers as the key factor).
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 8:05 AM Post #4,919 of 25,885
I really wish you had a chance to demo the DAVE. To my ears it's very analogue and natural sounding vs anything else I've heard, with ample power on tap. Honestly, I don't think I've heard a digital source sound so analogue and realistic. Euphonic to my ears, and I've extensively demo'd a Liquid Crimson amp and have a LAu on order from the final batch, but I truly feel it isn't warranted, at least my headphones don't require the extra juice from the LAu (I purchased it before DAVE.... long build time on the LAu). If you've read this thread there are many comments that are similar.

On Headphone Guru Frank noted very little difference when adding his LAu to the DAVE. Again, it would be best if you could audition one.

Oh, and in general, the Hugo will not give you a sense of the DAVE's tonality. Maybe a glimpse in to the capabilities of Rob's designs but the DAVE is really in a different class.


I very very nearly put my deposit down but can't really justify an LAu when I have the WA5 already, don't want it to get out of control...

But if a DAVE could replace my Burson Conductor, Cavalli LC and WA5 amps then it's a compelling option BUT I cannot demo one. Buying blind at that price level is insane, however.


As described by x RELIC x, the DAVE plays on an even higher level, but I'm a fan of the Hugo nonetheless. It may have a slightly bright timbre, but it would be a pity if it was judged just by the degree of synergy with the rest of the system. The ideal case would be a system with adjustable tonal balance, hence independency from component synergy (with the sound transducers as the key factor).


I'd love to hear one in place of my M51 in my HiFi. Even if as you say it's not Dave level might still give me an idea of the sound Robs FPGA programming produces vs the discreet circuitry of the NAD and Sabre chip in my XSABRE.

I hate living on this stupid island sometimes. I was in the US earlier this year I should have demo'd one then.
 
Sep 30, 2016 at 11:28 AM Post #4,920 of 25,885
Some people (maybe those who like to pay a high audiophile tax) would scoff that my idea of super clarity in an amp was my SPL Auditor. It elevated every DAC I had every auditioned, including the Berkeley Alpha Reference 2, and put to shame many solid state amps at 4 times the price.

Once I got the DAVE, though, I sold my Auditor. The DAVE's headphone section was that good. But, more to the point, I hooked up my Auditor to the DAVE both as a preamp, and DAC only, and for the first time my Auditor sounded like crap. It's not the DAVE's fault. I had reached a point for headphone listening where no artficial colors or additives were needed.
 

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