CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Sep 16, 2016 at 3:34 PM Post #4,786 of 25,914
I have just tried ASIO vs WASAPI on my power hungry design lap-top with Dave - via battery operation on the lap-top, I could not hear a consistent difference.

I used a recent download - Hildegard von Bingen: Vox Cosmica a 96k 24 bit recording. This is fantastic SQ and lovely music too. 

Rob


Excellent. It would have been a little troubling had there been a difference. If I remember right from my fiddling about there can be differences between WASAPI and ASIO with respect to the resilience of J River to other processes. Fire off loads of heavy programs and try and bring your processor to its knees - iirc one of the output modes will give you more or sooner dropouts. But there are also W10 system settings that affect this, in particular whether background processes have priority or not.

If you want some absolutely stunning recordings that take your breath away I can recommend the Dunedin Consorts Mozart Requiem and Bach Magnificat on Linn records. Stunning,
 
Sep 16, 2016 at 4:54 PM Post #4,787 of 25,914
Does anyone bring the Chord Dave into the Office? It's not that big actually.
 
Sep 16, 2016 at 5:12 PM Post #4,788 of 25,914
Does anyone bring the Chord Dave into the Office? It's not that big actually.


I do every day... wait, I work from home, lol! :D
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 2:26 AM Post #4,791 of 25,914
  No offense taken.  I appreciate your high standards when it comes to recordings.  
 
I guess I'm a bit more practical with how I approach this.  My ears are routinely treated to live performances.  Many of my family and friends are musical and many of us play a variety of instruments, all acoustic.  My wife and I frequent live performances as well, usually at least monthly and sometimes weekly.  I even mix some of my own recordings.  I gave up a long time ago believing that an electronic system can come close to recreating live music.  
 
 
Here's a little tidbit about Tidal that may or may not be true but I'm inclined to believe that it is.  During a conversation with Eric Shinn, the head of software development for Aurender at CES earlier this year, he told me that he was enjoying the quality of Tidal streaming on his personal Aurender unit more than his own CD rips that were stored on his Aurender.  When I asked him why, he told me that his CD rips didn't sound as good.  Because Aurender has a professional business relationship with Tidal, he began investigating and found out Tidal has access to and streams from original masters that are provided to them by each label while the physical CDs that we each buy are often not ripped from the original master but rather ripped from a rip of a rip of a rip of the original master and are often fraught with errors.  As I did my own listening with my former Aurender, I also found that Tidal streaming was at least as good and in some cases better than my CD rips and even some of my downloads.  

 
I'm glad you weren't offended, because that is never my intent. In a weird way, we're all in the audio realm together, but not really, if you know what I mean. I will be the first to admit that when I read keywords like Tidal, or Spotify, or even think about most modern masterings I get a knee-jerk reaction that is frequently warranted, but sometimes not. I simply find it incredibly lamentable the state of audio today. And again, I'm not saying that a recording has to be perfect to be enjoyable. I've been thoroughly enjoying a plethora of different styles, mixes, and vintages with my DAVE, all for different reasons, with or without flaws in the recording. None of the recordings, however, have been squashed dynamically by digital means in the mastering phase, although a few, e.g. a lot of  the Beatles, have that old tube compression when it was originally recorded. But I digress.
 
As for Tidal receiving original masters, well, that is a recent (and a good) trend that's been happening for even physical CD releases as of late. In the early days of CDs there were a ton of flat transfers from original masters, when available, but that was soon supplanted by remasters, most of good quality, until we started hitting the mid-90s when all of these "hot" masters started oozing out of mastering houses. Yes, with a lack of the master tapes, or just plain laziness, there have been many CDs transferred from 2nd or 3rd gen dupes of the masters. Today it's a mixed bag, because yes, the current trend says, "Hey, let's go back to the original master and cut this thing," but also, "And while we're at it, let's make this 1965 recording sound modern." The only way to make the recording sound truly modern, though, is to remix the album, and that's a whole other can of worms. So, anyway, most of the stuff from Tidal and the like, yeah, I'll buy that they are transferring from master tapes, but what are they doing to the rip of the master in the mastering phase is the question. If it's being killed by limiters and compressors to make it sound modern, well, it doesn't matter what gen the tape is. With the DAVE I'd wager say (but I'd be damned to know how to quantify it) that you would be able to pick up more of the subtle audio cues from a poorly recorded album, yet with all it's dynamics, versus a fantastic recorded album, yet clipped, squashed and loud.
 
That said, I'm thankful for the DAVE. I'm thankful for people like Steven Wilson and Neil Young...and I'm thankful for all of the people who take part in these conversations here. I've learned a whole lot and I look forward to learning a lot more.
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 4:10 AM Post #4,792 of 25,914
Evolvist
I must admit I do like much of that old tube compression on voices or instruments. Equally when it is pumped on a mix to add excitement. Analogue compression still sounds more natural to me. I think the problem with modern mastering techniques is that it can be overused to the point of losing the emotion of musicality. Dynamics are intrinsically linked to emotion and messing with them too much destroys the magic for me. The remaster of Van Morrisons - Healing Game is affected by this problem. It is not as destructive as Ryan Adams -Heartbreaker (sacd/cd) but something is lost. It is probably the reason Van cancelled the schedule to remaster all his albums part way through. Eventually I think many early CD masters will become collectors items. I suspect it will be a costly mistake in years to come for anyone to give away one of the more rare Doug Sax masterings. :)

Corrected: Van Morrison album I was referring to was 'The Healing Game' and not 'Back on top' which I originally referred to
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 4:46 AM Post #4,793 of 25,914
I was fortunate enough to hear Doug Sax working at the Mastering Lab in the early 90's. At that time, it was the best reproduced audio I had heard.
 
Talking of pro-audio, whilst in Moscow last week I was doing a technical talk on Dave and Mojo, and afterwards a young recording engineer talked to me. Naturally, I chatted about Davina, and he said that he would like a vari-speed option on it, as a lot of ADC/DAC's don't allow it. So I thought about it, and reckoned it was possible, so we will add it as a feature on the pro version of Davina. Now he needs it so that he can match pitch from different tracks. So I said why didn't he use digital effects to change the pitch? He said they were awful, and completely changed the character of the voice, making it sound unnatural.
 
We then talked about removing DC offsets - and he said that using low pass filters sounded worse than taking a file, calculating the DC and subtracting to offset. I explained why it would make a difference - but the point I am making is that there are very good mastering and recording engineers who really do have good ears and are prepared to make great efforts to get more musical sound.
 
But they need the tools to do the job properly - and that's why I am so keen on creating the tools for them.
 
Rob
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 5:50 AM Post #4,794 of 25,914
A special moment with Doug Sax by the sound of it Rob and a very interesting discussion with a recording engineer. I know what he means about distorting the voice with pitch shifting. The only software I have heard that is anywhere near natural in this respect is Melodyne. Like the engineer implied, in general they are not worth bothering with unless you are going for a deliberately unnatural sound.

Anyway, the Davina project must be a refreshing change for you Rob. Please do continue to keep us informed on its development.
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 6:00 AM Post #4,795 of 25,914
The more I think about that 'varispeed' request Rob, the more I think the Davina project could spur new commercial developments for you and Chord. Once your have proven the superior sq I think engineers will want you to build that capability into all manner of their everyday processes. It could be quite exciting I think, though very time consuming at the same time.

......I hope you are training a Rob junior to handle the extra workload. :)
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 6:53 AM Post #4,796 of 25,914
Does the Dave work with streaming services like TIDAL?

Has anyone compared the Hifiman HE 1000 with the HE 1000 V2?

Also heard the the new McIntosh MHA 150 has a better second generation DAC. Wonder how this sounds compared to the Chord Dave, also on my short list for future pairing with a HEK.
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 6:54 AM Post #4,797 of 25,914
  I was fortunate enough to hear Doug Sax working at the Mastering Lab in the early 90's. At that time, it was the best reproduced audio I had heard.
 
Talking of pro-audio, whilst in Moscow last week I was doing a technical talk on Dave and Mojo, and afterwards a young recording engineer talked to me. Naturally, I chatted about Davina, and he said that he would like a vari-speed option on it, as a lot of ADC/DAC's don't allow it. So I thought about it, and reckoned it was possible, so we will add it as a feature on the pro version of Davina. Now he needs it so that he can match pitch from different tracks. So I said why didn't he use digital effects to change the pitch? He said they were awful, and completely changed the character of the voice, making it sound unnatural.
 
We then talked about removing DC offsets - and he said that using low pass filters sounded worse than taking a file, calculating the DC and subtracting to offset. I explained why it would make a difference - but the point I am making is that there are very good mastering and recording engineers who really do have good ears and are prepared to make great efforts to get more musical sound.
 
But they need the tools to do the job properly - and that's why I am so keen on creating the tools for them.
 
Rob


Regarding Doug Sax his direct cut Sheffield Labs classical LPs like Prokofiev´s Romeo and Juliet and excerpts from Wagner operas are still after all these years,they were done around 1977,THE refererences for me  of string sound, natural timbre and how an orchestra sounds in an admittedly dryish  hall.A very coherent simple mic take.
Soundstage doesn´t get more realistic than this imho.Absolutely pinpoint  location of instrument layout both  front to back and the sides way beyond both of my electrostatic speakers.
And no synthetic digital no man´s land blackness.
Well recorded acoustic music does NOT arise from digital blackness!
What you  should hear before the music starts, apart from a slight surface noise as with LPs is the ambient sound of the venue itself and whatever extramusical noise players make now and then.
The purity of tone and superb string tone and lightning fast and accurate not low res digital  squashed, transients  with harmonics intact,from percussion is still the most realistic I have ever heard from any recording medium.
If all LPs had been  this good I would never have bought into digital for any other reasons than portability needs for my travels.
RBCD a few years later came as a pain and an offence on sensitive ears!
Mind you I still have roughly ten shelf metres of LPs in my listening room.
I think the reasons for their superiority over a lot of modern digital boils down  to the following: all analogue, no  digital approximations and filtering,  no bits involved, no sampling and no limiting with the best direct cuts.
And the dynamic range from direct cuts, is as good as it gets from LP,and quiet vinyl,around 70 dB. No signal processing,no compression. Simply stunning.
Regarding pitch /speed variation I am of the opinion that if a singer can´t sing in tune, get someone who can, to do the job for her or him instead.
There are too many in the popular music genre that can´t really sing in tune imo.
I rarely listen to that genre but what worries me most is the decline in standards in the classical world where time and cost saving, multimic overkill and signal processsing and post-processing  too often ruin the final result and renders it less realistic than even a decent recording made in the late fifties done with a simple blumlein stereo mic set.
Blumlein or Sheffields labs  spaced omnis ,simple miking, no limiting ,a goood venue and orchestra and highest possible resolving  Davina, now that  would sound promising.
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 6:57 AM Post #4,798 of 25,914
......I hope you are training a Rob junior to handle the extra workload. :)

 
 
One can't 'train' accumulated wisdom.
rolleyes.gif

 
Sep 17, 2016 at 7:13 AM Post #4,799 of 25,914
Does the Dave work with streaming services like TIDAL?

Has anyone compared the Hifiman HE 1000 with the HE 1000 V2?

Also heard the the new McIntosh MHA 150 has a better second generation DAC. Wonder how this sounds compared to the Chord Dave, also on my short list for future pairing with a HEK.


Tidal, yes, if your source can play Tidal and output a digital signal to the DAVE then you will hear it. The DAVE simply receives the digital bitstream and has nothing to do with Tidal. That is up to the source.

Ask about the HE1000 V1 vs V2 in the HE1000 thread, you'll get way more responses.

The McIntosh is far behind the DAVE's measured DAC performance. Not even in the same ballpark. Also, the McIntosh headphone output specs are, again, behind the DAVE.

I have no judgement on the McIntosh unit's sound, I haven't heard one, but you're asking about two different categories of gear here.
 
Sep 17, 2016 at 7:28 AM Post #4,800 of 25,914
I was fortunate enough to hear Doug Sax working at the Mastering Lab in the early 90's. At that time, it was the best reproduced audio I had heard.

Talking of pro-audio, whilst in Moscow last week I was doing a technical talk on Dave and Mojo, and afterwards a young recording engineer talked to me. Naturally, I chatted about Davina, and he said that he would like a vari-speed option on it, as a lot of ADC/DAC's don't allow it. So I thought about it, and reckoned it was possible, so we will add it as a feature on the pro version of Davina. Now he needs it so that he can match pitch from different tracks. So I said why didn't he use digital effects to change the pitch? He said they were awful, and completely changed the character of the voice, making it sound unnatural.

We then talked about removing DC offsets - and he said that using low pass filters sounded worse than taking a file, calculating the DC and subtracting to offset. I explained why it would make a difference - but the point I am making is that there are very good mastering and recording engineers who really do have good ears and are prepared to make great efforts to get more musical sound.

But they need the tools to do the job properly - and that's why I am so keen on creating the tools for them.

Rob


Since requests are still coming in is Davina going to get RIAA EQ support too? :grimacing: Linn have one in their Dac and I can imagine this go some way towards settling the analog vs digital debate.
 

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