CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[audio_1]

Deleted

 

[VM72]

Where have you seen this?
Any photo perhaps

 

[Rob Watts]

Not based on anything I have read from him. I highly doubt he would categorise himself as one or the other.

Objectivist or subjectivist? When I read this my mind was initially filled with confusion - as on the one hand I spend most of my life looking into objective reasons to improve performance, and to come up with numbers to characterise errors. So there is a huge amount of measurements (including simulation or rather digital domain measurements) involved. So science and engineering is fundamental to the work that I do.

But on the other hand is objective listening tests, and trumping that is simply enjoying music and getting emotional with music. And without listening tests (carefully and objectively done) the designer is lost. So, even though science and engineering is absolutely important, without listening to guide you on the emotional music path, you are heading down a blind alley.

So subjectivism trumps objectivism.

But I must add that you have to be dreadfully careful about subjective assessment - it needs to be done objectively, and conclusions carefully evaluated, either by repeated (blind) listening tests or through repeated tests sometimes many years later.

I have a question for Rob Watts. Older versions of Dave had PZT2907 and PZT2222 output transistors equipped with blue plastic ERO capacitors. Newer versions which are equipped with Vishay black plastic capacitors have ZXTP19060 and ZXTN19060 that are more powerfull than the original version. Why did you make this change? I also noticed that the THD+N measurements published in Stereophile from 2017 are dominated by the 3rd harmonic, while the newer version is dominated by the 2nd harmonic (both the measurmenet in goldensoud and ASR measurements).

On the case of the OP transistors, this was done for reliability reasons - they actually have identical performance, but offer much greater power dissipation and collector currents. Caps get changed due to supply issues, but I always am involved whenever a part is changed, and won't accept a degradation in performance.

Like a real Objectivist I’m sure Rob has not touched tube equipment in years if not decades.

I see you are from Germany. When we launched the M scaler, I went around all of the many magazines. Oddly, the guys that had valve or tube amps, you could hear a huge improvement from the M scaler - but the sold state amps (which in fairness tended to be the more corporate magazines and mid-fi solid state amps) the difference was much less apparent. And I am not saying that valve gear is musically better than solid state which is not the case.

And in my household we have 2 valve amps - ok they are for electric guitars...

I've gone down the M-Scaler rabbit hole and can't escape. I keep testing it and every time I turn on that bypass I have to turn it off again in seconds. I must be crazy sensitive to transient timing.

Agreed - to me it's absolutely essential. I am just surprised that some don't hear the change as profoundly as I do.

You sure Rob writes his own HDL code and optimization?

I have read some of your posts and have "bitten my tongue" and not posted a reply. But this just takes the biscuit. Who the hell else is doing this (writing the HDL code)?

Just to be clear, I write all of the FPGA code, and supply Chord with a complete electronic design - PCB and FPGA code. Nobody else is involved, and I fully own the IP of my designs.

 

[chesebert]

Why do you expect a rando consumer to know how Chord allocates its engineering resources - it appears that you are 100% of the engineering. Typically you would have someone do the digital design in matlab and perhaps write the initial VHDL code, and then you would have another person with more hardware knowledge to start working on instruction pipeline and working on SIMD processes and of course optimize actual gate layout at the target hardware level. I already said it's hard to do both; not sure what else you want me to say.

 

[569424]

But I must add that you have to be dreadfully careful about subjective assessment - it needs to be done objectively, and conclusions carefully evaluated, either by repeated (blind) listening tests or through repeated tests sometimes many years later.

Thank you

 

[Currawong]

Objectivist or subjectivist?

Most forum "objectivism" is really not objectivism at all, but a subjective preference for a particular type of satisfaction. Many of my relatives are, or were scientists. I know full well that science just doesn't work the way many people seem to think it does.

 

[ecwl]

Why do you expect a rando consumer to know how Chord allocates its engineering resources - it appears that you are 100% of the engineering. Typically you would have someone do the digital design in matlab and perhaps write the initial VHDL code, and then you would have another person with more hardware knowledge to start working on instruction pipeline and working on SIMD processes and of course optimize actual gate layout at the target hardware level. I already said it's hard to do both; not sure what else you want me to say.

I think the issue here is tone and civility. If you had said, “I wonder if Rob Watts do the end-to-end design & programming of his DAC”, it sounds very different than “You sure Rob writes his own HDL code and optimization”

English is actually my second language and I’m sure the tone was problematic in all languages regardless of translation. To come back and pretend that you’re just a “rando consumer” making an inquisitive statement is a bit disingenuous.

But I admit, I was surprised Rob does everything himself when he posted it years ago. Hence more admirations for his abilities.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Objectivist or subjectivist? When I read this my mind was initially filled with confusion - as on the one hand I spend most of my life looking into objective reasons to improve performance, and to come up with numbers to characterise errors. So there is a huge amount of measurements (including simulation or rather digital domain measurements) involved. So science and engineering is fundamental to the work that I do.

But on the other hand is objective listening tests, and trumping that is simply enjoying music and getting emotional with music. And without listening tests (carefully and objectively done) the designer is lost. So, even though science and engineering is absolutely important, without listening to guide you on the emotional music path, you are heading down a blind alley.

So subjectivism trumps objectivism.

But I must add that you have to be dreadfully careful about subjective assessment - it needs to be done objectively, and conclusions carefully evaluated, either by repeated (blind) listening tests or through repeated tests sometimes many years later.

This is exactly what I was getting at in my post earlier today, which was deleted (and I totally get it, given the cleanup and trend of the thread). But I am extremely appreciative to see you address this, which again should essentially be common sense for any experienced hobbyist. Both aspects are incredibly important (and understanding caveats of either), and with the slight tip of the scale towards subjectivism (imo) for obvious reasons. I will no longer use my own words or mention it any further, will simply reference this post over and over, when the continuous and obviously intentional derailment of this "debate" in this thread (and to be quite frank, others) surface.

 

[griff500]

The trolling is the price we have to pay to make sure that contributions that are in fact well-founded criticisms are not suppressed.

We need people coming in from all angles to keep the conversation entertaining and informative.

The degree of censorship that would be necessary to stop all trolling would kill the thread.

Constructive contributions or well-founded criticisms are fine. There’s nothing constructive about some member’s contributions.

I do get your point, but pages of crap to sift through does make it harder to get anything useful out of the thread.

Obviously I wouldn’t want ASR-style moderation where you’re banned for saying ‘yes, but how does it sound’, but some people really do their best to thread-crap at every opportunity and it’s a bit dull. Even with them on ignore the pages fill up with replies to them.

Partly my fault for getting sucked in and not hitting that ignore button quicker, but when I get a load of notifications for the thread and 90% are nonsense…

 

[FunkyBassMan]

I just want to say a heartfelt thanks to @Rob Watts for being in contact with us to the deep extent he is. He certainly has no obligation to whatsoever; he does his job superbly, creating fantastic products. He has nothing to defend. The ridiculous and pathetic swipes against Chord and him are just so much psychological disease. That he is willing to step up and answer queries and provide evidence and information speaks enormously to his credibility and dedication.

 

[DJW50]

I just want to say a heartfelt thanks to @Rob Watts for being in contact with us to the deep extent he is. He certainly has no obligation to whatsoever; he does his job superbly, creating fantastic products. He has nothing to defend. The ridiculous and pathetic swipes against Chord and him are just so much psychological disease. That he is willing to step up and answer queries and provide evidence and information speaks enormously to his credibility and dedication.

Well said, since buying the DAVE in preference to the Mola Mola Tambaqui I have just spent all my time re-listening and really enjoying all of my music content. It makes me smile when I listen to a track that has been my favourite for 30 plus years because the whole presentation is just alive and really enjoyable.
It's a fact of life that people get a 'bee in their bonnet' over silly things rather than just sit down and enjoy.

 

[Reactcore]

As you mentioned, your Chord Dave has instaled output transistors: PZT2907 and PZT2222.
In my Dave are instaled: ZXTN19060 and ZXTP19060". My Dave is made in May 2019. When is your Dave made? The date of manufacture should be affixed to the input mains plug/filter. (I don’t know how to insert foto from my photo library from my Phone)

Seen your picture..
Hm ok so there are two versions of the OP section around.. with different transistors

I also saw in yours the modification on U6 is sorted. Clearly you have a newer generation PCB..

Old version:

 

[Reactcore]

On the case of the OP transistors, this was done for reliability reasons - they actually have identical performance, but offer much greater power dissipation and collector currents. Caps get changed due to supply issues, but I always am involved whenever a part is changed, and won't accept a degradation in performance.

I guess @VM72 mentioned this with the reasoning this change might be giving better performance.

With better current specs.. they may also give less distortion to heavier loads

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I just want to say a heartfelt thanks to @Rob Watts for being in contact with us to the deep extent he is. He certainly has no obligation to whatsoever; he does his job superbly, creating fantastic products. He has nothing to defend. The ridiculous and pathetic swipes against Chord and him are just so much psychological disease. That he is willing to step up and answer queries and provide evidence and information speaks enormously to his credibility and dedication.

Rob Watts is a gentleman, the personal attacks on him and his reputation have been pathetic, it's one thing to disagree with the man, however, calling him names and ridiculing him is downright childish, it just shows the low-level thinking and lack of decency some people and sites have.

 

[stemiki]

I guess @VM72 mentioned this with the reasoning this change might be giving better performance.

With better current specs.. they may also give less distortion to heavier loads

In fact I was wondering why some have more satisfaction from the headphone output than others.

Maybe that's why I get to push the Abyss directly from DAVE with great satisfaction.

Also, with the battery as power supply, the volume can go up to infinity...