Apr 8, 2022 at 5:05 PM Post #19,681 of 27,094
-301 dB for correct depth perception..... Rob you are number one!
I don’t know what this even means, given the average quiet listening room has noise levels around 30 dB (try monitoring on your iPhone sometimes). I never listen above 85 dB, often less. So, anything above 60 dB of dynamic range is wasted, as far as I am concerned. 300 dB. I think you’re now getting into quantum level effects.….try to work this math out sometimes, remembering that dB is a logarithmic scale.
 
Apr 8, 2022 at 8:18 PM Post #19,682 of 27,094
Hello my friends. I've been considering a Dave for my next purchase, but realized the prices on them have gone a good bit higher than I expected. I could get a used unit, but was curious if anyone has compared their dave to any other dac that they felt performed close to the Daves capabilities for a better price. I considered TT2, but keep reading that it still has a noticable veil to compared to dave and that its a bit warmer. I'm open to suggestions and any help would be greatly appreciated.

The same manufacturer would not usually offer a "better" device for a cheaper price. That would simply cannibalise their own sales for less revenue. The only time I can think of a cheaper product being offered that may be slightly better than a current TOTL product in their own lineup is when there is a massive technology change (or similar breakthrough) and they try the device in the mid-range to test the market with a fully developed plan to supersede their TOTL at some point, thus maintaining their product hierarchy.

DAVE is currently, and for the foreseeable future, the most capable DAC from Chord Electronics.
 
Apr 9, 2022 at 2:08 AM Post #19,683 of 27,094
Hello my friends. I've been considering a Dave for my next purchase, but realized the prices on them have gone a good bit higher than I expected. I could get a used unit, but was curious if anyone has compared their dave to any other dac that they felt performed close to the Daves capabilities for a better price. I considered TT2, but keep reading that it still has a noticable veil to compared to dave and that its a bit warmer. I'm open to suggestions and any help would be greatly appreciated.
If you only ever heat a TT2 you will be impressed. It is a good dac. But if you get to compare with a Dave you will realise that the TT2 is not as transparent as a Dave by some considerable margin and also the Dave has a much cleaner and more detailed bass. In comparison the TT2 bass is rather wooly and imprecise.

However the TT2 better ability to drive headphones gives it an advantage in that area but if like me you never use headphones and only a speaker system that headphone advantage with the TT2 is no advantage. In any case the Dave is no slouch with driving almost every headphone.
 
Apr 9, 2022 at 5:53 AM Post #19,684 of 27,094
I don’t know what this even means, given the average quiet listening room has noise levels around 30 dB (try monitoring on your iPhone sometimes). I never listen above 85 dB, often less. So, anything above 60 dB of dynamic range is wasted, as far as I am concerned. 300 dB. I think you’re now getting into quantum level effects.….try to work this math out sometimes, remembering that dB is a logarithmic scale.

-301 dB isn't into quantum level effects - so for driving say a Stealth at decent volume levels then -301db is about 600 electrons - which is still a scary small number. If you had told me that needing this level of accuracy was subjectively important 10 years ago I would have said you were deluded or insane. No way the ear/brain can be that sensitive. But I can only report what I hear - and I have done a huge number of listening tests (some blind) where at this level one can perceive it. The odd thing is that these things are easy to hear - just look at the previous post about the transparency of Dave against TT2 for example - but the technical difference between Dave and TT2 for small signal accuracy is very small.
 
Apr 9, 2022 at 6:45 AM Post #19,685 of 27,094
-301 dB isn't into quantum level effects - so for driving say a Stealth at decent volume levels then -301db is about 600 electrons - which is still a scary small number. If you had told me that needing this level of accuracy was subjectively important 10 years ago I would have said you were deluded or insane. No way the ear/brain can be that sensitive. But I can only report what I hear - and I have done a huge number of listening tests (some blind) where at this level one can perceive it. The odd thing is that these things are easy to hear - just look at the previous post about the transparency of Dave against TT2 for example - but the technical difference between Dave and TT2 for small signal accuracy is very small.
We must always be wary of attractively simplistic theories.

The data has primacy. When there is a discrepancy between theory and data we do not throw away the data, we throw away the theory.

Enough people in reasonably well-constructed test scenarios can hear these differences and we have to accept that data exists that we cannot ignore.

For examples, riddle me these:

Why is it that dome breakup in tweeters above eg 30kHz matters when it seems we cannot hear above less than 20kHz? But it does.

Why would we never dream of using unequal cable lengths left and right in a high-end system? But we wouldn't.

Why are all high-end amplifiers that do imaging and sound staging properly constructed with absolute left-right symmetry? But they are.

How can we hear the difference between a Steinway and a Bösendorfer on a transistor radio with a 2" speaker in mono? But we can.

How is it that a pure stereo system of only a left and a right speaker can create a soundscape that not only reaches past the speakers left and right but also up and down, above the head of and even behind the listener. But it can. My main system does this, I have heard it myself.

And there's much more of the same.

Data points that cannot and must not be ignored.

The "ear/brain" is performing analysis that goes far beyond a basic analogy of "microphone/tape recorder" on which a lot of simplistic arguments seem to be based.

The ear/brain when listening is working not just in the here and now but is working with the totality of the sound being heard - past, present, and future expectation - fitting the sound to a vast learned experience of sound starting when laid in a cot as a baby.

There was a time in our evolutionary history that picking out tiny delicate sounds in an ambient was a matter of life or death. Our ear/brain system evolved to meet this challenge.

We still have this power to analyse sound in great detail.
 
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Apr 11, 2022 at 12:07 AM Post #19,686 of 27,094
Hello my friends. I've been considering a Dave for my next purchase, but realized the prices on them have gone a good bit higher than I expected. I could get a used unit, but was curious if anyone has compared their dave to any other dac that they felt performed close to the Daves capabilities for a better price. I considered TT2, but keep reading that it still has a noticable veil to compared to dave and that its a bit warmer. I'm open to suggestions and any help would be greatly appreciated.
Please, no offense to the existing DAVE owners (as I have been one myself)—but I can quote you several DACs (if we’re just discussing DACs) that outperform the DAVE in nearly every aspect—just about every delta sigma DAC utilizing all 8 channels of the ES9038pro chipset that has emerged in the last year is proving to be equal if not superior to the DAVE, a stalwart option that has long rested on its laurels and is a bit overdue in justifying its breathtaking price.

Until the era of the “modern” DAC (essentially the last year and a half), the prevailing delta sigma units were not up to par, didn’t measure well, and the prevailing boutique options (such as the DAVE and to a lesser extent the Schitt Yggdrasil and a few R2R ladder behemoths) were innovative enough to overcome such limitations and justify their exorbitant expense. But in the past year, several emerging manufacturers have perfected the implementation of Sabre’s revolutionary chip—and by engaging all eight channels and pairing it with the right transformers, they’ve overcome the ES “hump”. And in doing so, they have achieved a level of accuracy, signal to noise ratio, linearity and circumvention of the quantization noise inherent to the DA process that surpasses the limits of human hearing. The Gustard x26pro, and more recently the x18, are two such examples that offer record-breaking performance, far superior to the DAVE (again, only as a DAC), at a fraction of the cost ($1,499 and $749, respectively).

If you’re not seeking an all-in-one option (which the DAVE offers exceptionally well), a good formula to follow to attain the highest quality-to cash ratio these days is to invest your hard-earned money in the following descending order of priority: headphones—>amp—>DAC—>cables. Pick a DAC that offers the most faithful reproduction of the original masters possible, and let your amp and speakers handle post-DA targets such as soundstage, imaging, warmth, and slam. Your wallet and ears will thank you.

And if you already have the DAVE, I know you love it and I totally get why—you’re fortunate to be able to afford it! I just think it’s only fair for prospective buyers to be aware of newer alternatives. Peace!
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 2:45 AM Post #19,687 of 27,094
Please, no offense to the existing DAVE owners (as I have been one myself)—but I can quote you several DACs (if we’re just discussing DACs) that outperform the DAVE in nearly every aspect—just about every delta sigma DAC utilizing all 8 channels of the ES9038pro chipset that has emerged in the last year is proving to be equal if not superior to the DAVE, a stalwart option that has long rested on its laurels and is a bit overdue in justifying its breathtaking price.

Until the era of the “modern” DAC (essentially the last year and a half), the prevailing delta sigma units were not up to par, didn’t measure well, and the prevailing boutique options (such as the DAVE and to a lesser extent the Schitt Yggdrasil and a few R2R ladder behemoths) were innovative enough to overcome such limitations and justify their exorbitant expense. But in the past year, several emerging manufacturers have perfected the implementation of Sabre’s revolutionary chip—and by engaging all eight channels and pairing it with the right transformers, they’ve overcome the ES “hump”. And in doing so, they have achieved a level of accuracy, signal to noise ratio, linearity and circumvention of the quantization noise inherent to the DA process that surpasses the limits of human hearing. The Gustard x26pro, and more recently the x18, are two such examples that offer record-breaking performance, far superior to the DAVE (again, only as a DAC), at a fraction of the cost ($1,499 and $749, respectively).

If you’re not seeking an all-in-one option (which the DAVE offers exceptionally well), a good formula to follow to attain the highest quality-to cash ratio these days is to invest your hard-earned money in the following descending order of priority: headphones—>amp—>DAC—>cables. Pick a DAC that offers the most faithful reproduction of the original masters possible, and let your amp and speakers handle post-DA targets such as soundstage, imaging, warmth, and slam. Your wallet and ears will thank you.

And if you already have the DAVE, I know you love it and I totally get why—you’re fortunate to be able to afford it! I just think it’s only fair for prospective buyers to be aware of newer alternatives. Peace!
Hmmn, well, it really depends on what you mean by ‘outperform’. Certainly just doing an ASR type of comparison of figures is not a very reliable guage. I have heard some of those DACs to which you refer and whilst they might represent an interesting proposition at their price level they definitely do not sound as good as the Dave.

And if you are so sure of what you are saying why have you not sold your Dave and got one of the other supposedly outperforming DCAs? Why not quickly sell your Dave now before the veil is lifted from peoples eyes by your enlightening view on the new hierarchy of DACs and your Dave becomes worthless and unsellable?

I know why I still have my Dave and that is because the way it sounds still comprehensively outperforms all other DACs I have heard.

PS, no offence taken or intended.
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 2:47 AM Post #19,689 of 27,094
And in doing so, they have achieved a level of accuracy, signal to noise ratio, linearity and circumvention of the quantization noise inherent to the DA process that surpasses the limits of human hearing. The Gustard x26pro, and more recently the x18, are two such examples that offer record-breaking performance, far superior to the DAVE (again, only as a DAC), at a fraction of the cost ($1,499 and $749, respectively).
People have been making these claims since Dave came out, there's really nothing revolutionary that has happened since. It's the ASR punchline to keep selling Topping's and etc.
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 3:23 AM Post #19,690 of 27,094
Please, no offense to the existing DAVE owners (as I have been one myself)—but I can quote you several DACs (if we’re just discussing DACs) that outperform the DAVE in nearly every aspect
If your signature is up to date then you apparently used to own a DAVE but you now use a Topping D90. Seriously?
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 3:24 AM Post #19,691 of 27,094
Certainly just doing an ASR type of comparison of figures is not a very reliable guage
Agreed. I really hope we can keep that kind of myopic objectivism ideology we see over at ASR out of Head-Fi, and indeed any other audio forum. Anybody who is 100% certain of their position is holding a faith based position, not a rational one. And there are an awful lot of the '100% certain' types on ASR...
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 5:04 AM Post #19,692 of 27,094
Hmmn, well, it really depends on what you mean by ‘outperform’. Certainly just doing an ASR type of comparison of figures is not a very reliable guage. I have heard some of those DACs to which you refer and whilst they might represent an interesting proposition at their price level they definitely do not sound as good as the Dave.

And if you are so sure of what you are saying why have you not sold your Dave and got one of the other supposedly outperforming DCAs? Why not quickly sell your Dave now before the veil is lifted from peoples eyes by your enlightening view on the new hierarchy of DACs and your Dave becomes worthless and unsellable?

I know why I still have my Dave and that is because the way it sounds still comprehensively outperforms all other DACs I have heard.

PS, no offence taken or intended.
Thank you for the feedback, I have indeed sold my DAVE in favor of separate components, and a 4.4mm balanced headphone output. The list is in my signature.
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 5:17 AM Post #19,693 of 27,094
People have been making these claims since Dave came out, there's really nothing revolutionary that has happened since. It's the ASR punchline to keep selling Topping's and etc.
Well that’s pretty condescending I’d say. I know I asked for it, but I am actually capable of making my own independent ideas, and I’ve owned many DACs, including the DAVE. My purpose is to combat pervasive pressures to spend excesses of money in lieu of less costly but equally fine alternatives, but since this is the Chord DAVE forum, I’ll take it elsewhere. Peace…
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 5:21 AM Post #19,694 of 27,094
Agreed. I really hope we can keep that kind of myopic objectivism ideology we see over at ASR out of Head-Fi, and indeed any other audio forum. Anybody who is 100% certain of their position is holding a faith based position, not a rational one. And there are an awful lot of the '100% certain' types on ASR...
Where did I mention ASR? Your statement seems more aligned with faith-based positions and absolute certainty, in lieu of being open to other ideas. But I accept that my choice of forums was in retrospect misguided, and out of respect for current DAVE owners I apologize. Hopefully we can consider more mutually-respectful conversations elsewhere.
 
Apr 11, 2022 at 5:22 AM Post #19,695 of 27,094
Thank you for the feedback, I have indeed sold my DAVE in favor of separate components, and a 4.4mm balanced headphone output. The list is in my signature.
The DAVE is a separate component... 🤔
 

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