CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[adrianm]

The difference that a PhoenixUSB is doing is simply not polluting the DAC with noise and provide a very well timed signal with very low phase noise. It enables the DAC to work at its best."

But why does timing when the dac (all dacs pretty much) do their own reclocking anyway). Even if the Phoenix did something that actually improves the sound, the pricing is ridiculous. You can get a pair of B&W Formation Duo's as an all in one system (which i'm considering for my next place where i won't have any shared walls) for more or less the same money.

It’s also possible on your sources, the differences are more subtle. I’m currently leaning in the direction you don’t need a great source, just not a ***ty one for the Dave or mscaler. Rob tests with his laptop but I believe only when it’s running off battery. I’d test battery vs plugged in on my MacBook Pro if it weren’t for the fact the battery can’t hold a charge anymore and dies when unplugged.

At this point, my current setup sounds right. I’m truly not trying to improve the sound anymore. The new streamer is just to replace outdated laptop and have something stable. Over last few days I’ve been enjoying my music more than ever.

Well i also tested with my dell xps 13 and my macbook pro 16 with the same results. My pc is plugged into the same mains filter as Dave but i doubt that has any influence on the matter. In the beginning i did slightly prefer optical even to the macbook pro off battery. I have nothing against streamers if you need a streamer, i just remain unconvinced of the sound quality benefits (which isn't even the focal point of their advertising). Especially over optical out of pretty much anything.

 

[iamoneagain]

But why does timing when the dac (all dacs pretty much) do their own reclocking anyway). Even if the Phoenix did something that actually improves the sound, the pricing is ridiculous. You can get a pair of B&W Formation Duo's as an all in one system (which i'm considering for my next place where i won't have any shared walls) for more or less the same money.



Well i also tested with my dell xps 13 and my macbook pro 16 with the same results. My pc is plugged into the same mains filter as Dave but i doubt that has any influence on the matter. In the beginning i did slightly prefer optical even to the macbook pro off battery. I have nothing against streamers if you need a streamer, i just remain unconvinced of the sound quality benefits (which isn't even the focal point of their advertising). Especially over optical out of pretty much anything.

Well then at this point I’m going to say it’s because your headphones aren’t transparent enough. The Utopia’s are so revealing that the whole chain is more important. That’s why sometimes people say they don’t like their headphone it could really be the rest of the setup that’s the issue.

When I tried the Uptopia’s on the original Hugo, it had an enjoyable sounded but closed in. On the Hugo 2, it sounded too technical. And on the Dave/mscaler it’s just amazing. Wide open soundstage, deep punchy bass, liquid highs and mids.

 

[Triode User]

But why does timing when the dac (all dacs pretty much) do their own reclocking anyway). Even if the Phoenix did something that actually improves the sound, the pricing is ridiculous. You can get a pair of B&W Formation Duo's as an all in one system (which i'm considering for my next place where i won't have any shared walls) for more or less the same money.

Well i also tested with my dell xps 13 and my macbook pro 16 with the same results. My pc is plugged into the same mains filter as Dave but i doubt that has any influence on the matter. In the beginning i did slightly prefer optical even to the macbook pro off battery. I have nothing against streamers if you need a streamer, i just remain unconvinced of the sound quality benefits (which isn't even the focal point of their advertising). Especially over optical out of pretty much anything.

Read what Nuno actually said about what gets reclocked by the Phoenix and what doesn’t get reclocked. I’m not saying he is right or wrong but for sure he knows more about this than I do and probably more than you as well. No offence meant or intended.

For me on the subject of sources my personal experience is that Daves transparency rather shines the spotlight on the sources and devices such as the Phoenix can make an improvement commensurate with the cost. As always, if something is not perceived as being value for money then buyers will not buy. If you can’t hear any difference in sources etc or with the Phoenix then you are in the lucky position of not needing or wanting to buy it. Again my personal experience of streamers is that they make a big difference to the sound of the system and indeed even the power supply to the streamer can make a big difference. YMMV of course as in all things of this nature.

 

[adrianm]

Read what Nuno actually said about what gets reclocked by the Phoenix and what doesn’t get reclocked. I’m not saying he is right or wrong but for sure he knows more about this than I do and probably more than you as well. No offence meant or intended.

For me on the subject of sources my personal experience is that Daves transparency rather shines the spotlight on the sources and devices such as the Phoenix can make an improvement commensurate with the cost. As always, if something is not perceived as being value for money then buyers will not buy. If you can’t hear any difference in sources etc or with the Phoenix then you are in the lucky position of not needing or wanting to buy it. Again my personal experience of streamers is that they make a big difference to the sound of the system and indeed even the power supply to the streamer can make a big difference. YMMV of course as in all things of this nature.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. I did read, i'm just arguing it all seems mostly irrelevant as the consensus for things that actually affect usb sound quality have been tackled by Dave already. I might need more revealing headphones, though for closed backs this is pretty much as good as it gets.
But one thing that keeps me from going on a crusade for "ultimate transparency " is the fact that so many older songs on my playlist are so poorly recorded and one dimensional that the delta between my Desktop setup and my Airpods Pro is not that big. With properly recorded ,acoustic stuff it's night and day of course, but that's not all i listen to.

 

[Triode User]

all seems mostly irrelevant as the consensus for things that actually affect usb sound quality have been tackled by Dave already.

no, not the consensus, what you think, perhaps.

one thing that keeps me from going on a crusade for "ultimate transparency " is the fact that so many older songs on my playlist are so poorly recorded and one dimensional that the delta between my Desktop setup and my Airpods Pro is not that big.

I‘m not sure what older songs you listen to but at the weekend I downloaded an 11 CD set of Lightnin Hopkins blues recorded in the early part of the 1960s and for the most part the recording quality is sublime.

 

[doraymon]

To be precise on my previous response, here is the link on ROON Community and the post I had found a few months back.


https://community.roonlabs.com/t/question-on-u1-and-u1-mini/96203/13
Only one USB output is active despite the presence of two USB ports.
The AES / BNC / RCA / toslink outputs are all active if there is no USB connection to a DAC. You may turn them off individually.
If a USB DAC is connected, all the other outputs are invalid or off.

That' alright, in any case if you wanto to do an A/B with optical you should always disconnect the USB when trying out the OPT, Isn't it the whole point to try and avoid noise coming in from the mains/USB?

 

[sm60]

The other issue is see a lot of complaints about the software on the 2go and the poly. Think the appeal is more how the attach directly to the Hugo 2 or Mogo. With the Dave, no reason to use unless really want to keep with Chord. But as said, Rob has nothing to do with these devices.

Is there any Chord product out there that does not have software bugs that cannot be fixed by an update? How is this company still in business?

 

[iamoneagain]

Is there any Chord product out there that does not have software bugs that cannot be fixed by an update? How is this company still in business?

Not sure why you have a beef with Chord. From a dac point of view, which is what Rob works on, they’ve been nothing but amazing. Also think their amps get a lot of praise.

The poly was their first venture into streaming and I guess that didn’t go well. I didn’t follow to closely but thought it all got resolved in the end. For the 2go thought less problems and most claimed an improvement over whatever they used to use for the Hugo 2.

Not even sure why responding since this is clearly trolling.

 

[Ciggavelli]

Not sure why you have a beef with Chord. From a dac point of view, which is what Rob works on, they’ve been nothing but amazing. Also think their amps get a lot of praise.

The poly was their first venture into streaming and I guess that didn’t go well. I didn’t follow to closely but thought it all got resolved in the end. For the 2go thought less problems and most claimed an improvement over whatever they used to use for the Hugo 2.

Not even sure why responding since this is clearly trolling.

Nah, it’s not trolling. I also have the Hugo2Go, and I am, like a bunch of other posters on here, still having big problems with their 2gos having popping and static sounds (Chord claims it’s a software issue, but they haven’t fixed it yet). When the 2go works well, it makes the Hugo 2 that much better (and that should be proof enough for posters on here who doubt the sq benefits from dedicated streamers, but whatever).

 

[miketlse]

Is there any Chord product out there that does not have software bugs that cannot be fixed by an update?

Look at the chord product range.
You imply that all Chord products have software problems.
The poly and 2Go are the only two products where there have been problems from a software point of view.

 

[iamoneagain]

Nah, it’s not trolling. I also have the Hugo2Go, and I am, like a bunch of other posters on here, still having big problems with their 2gos having popping and static sounds (Chord claims it’s a software issue, but they haven’t fixed it yet). When the 2go works well, it makes the Hugo 2 that much better (and that should be proof enough for posters on here who doubt the sq benefits from dedicated streamers, but whatever).

The reason it’s trolling is asking how the company is still in business in a Dave thread of all places. You’ll find very few that have anything bad to say about the Dave itself.

Now when those other products from Chord are mentioned, it’s fair to tell someone to avoid them based on other reviews or personal experience. And that’s what I’ve done. But seems unfair that you should think whole company is bad. I’ve had Rob personally respond to one of my questions and also in posts. To me that’s good customers service.

 

[AndrewOld]

Just on this, I asked Nuno at Innuos to explain the Phoenix and this is what he said to me,

"The clock that's relevant for the asynchronous USB Audio protocol (emphasis on USB Audio) is related to the clock of the audio signal (PCM). This means the server itself when transmitting the audio does not have to use the internal (crappy) clock on the motherboard on the PCM stream so the DAC can decode it properly.

The PhoenixUSB reclocks the USB transmission packets (note just USB not USB Audio). It is totally unrelated to audio - this is the clock that establishes the transmission of USB data packets and has nothing to do with the Asynchronous USB Audio protocol. One thing that gives it away is the fact the PhoenixUSB works with any USB device - you can connect a hard drive or a USB stick to it if you like and that would work. It does not touch the audio signal at all, for the PhoenixUSB they're all just packets being transmitted to a destination.

The difference that a PhoenixUSB is doing is simply not polluting the DAC with noise and provide a very well timed signal with very low phase noise. It enables the DAC to work at its best."

Given that the reclocking the Phoenix does is, in their own words, “totally unrelated to audio”, it would arguably be more accurate to call it a regenerator, not a reclocker. For asynchronous USB the timing of the packets, however accurate, is irrelevant. Very old DACs that predate asynchronous USB are perhaps more likely to benefit. Bear in mind that the MScaler is also reclocking. And that in an ideal system a Phoenix should make no difference.

 

[Ciggavelli]

The reason it’s trolling is asking how the company is still in business in a Dave thread of all places. You’ll find very few that have anything bad to say about the Dave itself.

Now when those other products from Chord are mentioned, it’s fair to tell someone to avoid them based on other reviews or personal experience. And that’s what I’ve done. But seems unfair that you should think whole company is bad. I’ve had Rob personally respond to one of my questions and also in posts. To me that’s good customers service.

I love Chord products, but I’ve had a bunch of problems with them as well. My new DAVE I got at the time wouldn’t connect to my M-Scaler without making static sounds. Turns out it was a known problem with new units, and it took like several months for Chord to fix the issue. Thankfully my dealer let me borrow an older DAVE while I waited, but it was still annoying. Then this 2go issue. So maybe that biases me, but that’s my experience with Chord problems recently

 

[adrianm]

no, not the consensus, what you think, perhaps.

I invite you to have a look at the audiosciencereview threads . I think i'm a lot more open minded about general snake oil than they are.

 

[edwardsean]

no, not the consensus, what you think, perhaps.

By "consensus," I don't think @adrianm means the "majority opinion," but the "majority of things" that need to be addressed. I'm just going on context rather than the actual meaning of the word. I think his point is that the Dave has already dealt with the majority of things that effect jitter and noise from the incoming USB signal, thereby making units like the Phoenix superfluous. Here he is standing on the broad shoulders of Rob Watts, so it is not without warrant.

However, what @Triode User is graciously and gently trying to point out is that the situation with the incoming USB signal is fairly complex. We all have great respect for Rob Watts here. His solutions obviously have enormous effect, but @Triode User is right and there are still problems to be solved by external solutions.

Why do we need servers, reclockers, regenerators, upgraded cables, power supplies, etc. for Dave–when the designer has designed them to be unnecessary?

I'll follow up with more technical specifics, but I've also taken a step back and thought a bit about the psychology of it on the part of developers.

We are fortunate to have such brilliant minds working on these challenges to audio. These brilliant minds though are housed in, what do you call them again? Yeah, "human beings." All of us are limited and I've come to understand that when you devote your life to certain "hammer" all the world can look like "nails." It becomes harder to see the value of screws and bolts.

- To wit, the DAC designer can feel that his design is so good you don't need a dedicated server, the server designer can feel his work is so good you don't really need a regenerator, the regenerator designer may see his work as "the answer," and sees little improvement from expensive usb cables, the usb cable designer believes the key is in digital and perhaps undervalues power cables, the power cable maker feels that no amp or DAC performs properly without his contribution, and on and on.

I'm, of course, flattening this picture absurdly to draw a point. In the real "3-D" world, all capable developers understand that the problems and answers in an audio chain are holistic. Yet, we are all vulnerable to myopia. How many of us claim that our DAC, amp, cable, headphone is "the best" and crushes all others. How much more are the builders susceptible to exclusive devotion to their life labors. So, I don't easily throw out accusations of marketing hype and sell-out reviewers. We're human and have passions with limits on our field of view.

TL;DR: Again, the technical picture is really complex. We should be slow to draw such firm conclusions just because we've come to understand one aspect of the engineering. My own conclusion is that everything counts, not always, and definitely not in the same amount, but it is an audio "chain." The contribution of one part shifts the contribution of others, and you have to develop an understanding of the whole from source file all the way to transducer, and finally, your own brain.