Sep 3, 2020 at 7:16 PM Post #15,391 of 27,068
It's going to change your audiophile life. Guaranteed.
I feel so privileged I could afford it and I think everyone should be given the opportunity regardless of the wallet.
It should be like love!!

You all keep upping the expectations lol, but I believe you. Also, right now I've been buying and keeping a lot because of the lockdown and time at home due to pandemic. Once that's all over I'm definitely off-loading a lot of gear to offset the cost. I'm assuming the Dave will certainly stay.
 
Sep 3, 2020 at 10:20 PM Post #15,392 of 27,068
That is an interesting suggestion and in fact it is exactly what I did. I was in the euphoric stage of having added the Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply to my Dave and was seriously considering doing the same to my Blu MkII (that share exactly the same power supplies) when I came to a decision and instead sold the Blu MkII and instead bought an Mscaler to which I added a DC4 power supply (and instigated another euphoric audio experience).

And yet I see from your signature that you have a Blu with your Dave despite your advice to sm60?

By the way @sm60 ,despite its humble origins I always found the low noise Blu2 transport to be very good and understand that its demise was not due to quality issues but rather that the supply of the transports used in the Blu2 had dried up. On the other hand I admit that I did not compare it to a CEC transport and indeed that might have changed my mind except that it seems to be in the same cost sphere as a Taiko Extreme which is similarly out of my league and for that very reason I will do my level best not to hear either to avoid having to sell a kidney!

‘The CEC TL0 has this rock solid sound with subterranean bass that seems to extend down forever. Listening right now to a wonderful old recording of guitarist Wes Montgomery recorded at the Tsubo cafe in Berkeley. This is a fine 1960s recording remastered and reissued by JVC as part of their 20 bit K2 interface series (marked by a red jacket). Snap these up if you find them. I own a few and each is a music and sonic gem. Another stellar one in this series is the CD by Chet Baker. Like I said, I cannot explain why I find red book CD played back through the M-scaler on the Blu2 through the Dave superior to anything through Roon, high Rez or not. The CEC TL0 has this tactile grip on the sound where it seems to extract every ounce of information from the CD and then some. It’s like listening to a master tape. I bought my CEC TL0 used. Lucked out. They are unobtanium. Jump on one if you find anyone selling them. They don’t make such tank like transports anymore. New, they cost as much as a car. Too pricey for me. But you can find a used TL0 for far less if you are patient.

Through my Intel NUC Roon server and USB interface, I don’t get the same compelling rooted to the earth kind of huge soundstage. Perhaps I need to invest in an Innuos server. I know, bits are bits and all that. But 30 years of listening has taught me that transports make a difference. Why? I remember the first time I heard the old Theta laserdisc CD transport. It had this huge voluptuous liquid sound. This was in the early 1990s. I was stunned that a CD transport could change the sound! Prior to that, I had been using a run of the mill Sony ES player. The Theta was miles better. Since then, I’ve never skimped on CD transports. Sadly, they don’t last. Some people might question why I listen to CDs. I let you in on a little secret. Optical storage in my book is vastly vastly more reliable a medium than any hard drive ever made. I have CDs I bought 35 years ago in 1985 that work perfectly. Anyone here have a hard drive from the 1980s that still works? Ha, I didn’t think so. Hard drives then were tiny in size and unreliable. 30 years later, hard drives are exponentially larger and even more unreliable. Bought a pile of 16 terabyte drives a few months ago to set up a RAID server. Guess what? Half the drives have failed within a month. Yes, Seagate sends me free replacements each time they fail, but what a pain to rebuild my RAID each time. Hard drive technology is utterly unreliable. Even the esteemed Library of Congress does not recommend hard drives for archival storage. Guess their drives have been failing too.
 
Sep 4, 2020 at 2:38 AM Post #15,393 of 27,068
I've tested my Jitterbug and can't find any difference. And i've found the source to make such an insignificant difference that i won't bother.
I, for one am sticking with pc->optical->Dave. Not sure if i'm even getting the M-scaler, hate the clutter.
What kind of optical cable are you using, and does it make any difference with Dave?
I always used Sys Concept optical cables in different length and form, never had problems up to 24/192.
Now I read that glass fiber (as opposed to plastic, like the Sys Concept) cables might perform better than plastic because bla bla bla...
Any direct experience on the subject is welcome.
 
Sep 4, 2020 at 8:12 AM Post #15,394 of 27,068
‘The CEC TL0 has this rock solid sound with subterranean bass that seems to extend down forever. Listening right now to a wonderful old recording of guitarist Wes Montgomery recorded at the Tsubo cafe in Berkeley. This is a fine 1960s recording remastered and reissued by JVC as part of their 20 bit K2 interface series (marked by a red jacket). Snap these up if you find them. I own a few and each is a music and sonic gem. Another stellar one in this series is the CD by Chet Baker. Like I said, I cannot explain why I find red book CD played back through the M-scaler on the Blu2 through the Dave superior to anything through Roon, high Rez or not. The CEC TL0 has this tactile grip on the sound where it seems to extract every ounce of information from the CD and then some. It’s like listening to a master tape. I bought my CEC TL0 used. Lucked out. They are unobtanium. Jump on one if you find anyone selling them. They don’t make such tank like transports anymore. New, they cost as much as a car. Too pricey for me. But you can find a used TL0 for far less if you are patient.

Through my Intel NUC Roon server and USB interface, I don’t get the same compelling rooted to the earth kind of huge soundstage. Perhaps I need to invest in an Innuos server. I know, bits are bits and all that. But 30 years of listening has taught me that transports make a difference. Why? I remember the first time I heard the old Theta laserdisc CD transport. It had this huge voluptuous liquid sound. This was in the early 1990s. I was stunned that a CD transport could change the sound! Prior to that, I had been using a run of the mill Sony ES player. The Theta was miles better. Since then, I’ve never skimped on CD transports. Sadly, they don’t last. Some people might question why I listen to CDs. I let you in on a little secret. Optical storage in my book is vastly vastly more reliable a medium than any hard drive ever made. I have CDs I bought 35 years ago in 1985 that work perfectly. Anyone here have a hard drive from the 1980s that still works? Ha, I didn’t think so. Hard drives then were tiny in size and unreliable. 30 years later, hard drives are exponentially larger and even more unreliable. Bought a pile of 16 terabyte drives a few months ago to set up a RAID server. Guess what? Half the drives have failed within a month. Yes, Seagate sends me free replacements each time they fail, but what a pain to rebuild my RAID each time. Hard drive technology is utterly unreliable. Even the esteemed Library of Congress does not recommend hard drives for archival storage. Guess their drives have been failing too.
Interesting, and yes hardrives can and do fail.
But since the late 1980s I have not seen ANY classical recording session using either analogue tape or direct to disc recording.
But they sure could sound very good indeed.
Virtually ALL recordings made since the early 90s are made with computers and I can't see or actually hear how transferring a digital file to a physical disc could or would, in any way improve on what's been stored digitally as ones and zeros on a harddrive?
Safe storage is another subject imho.
When I can clearly hear that transports sound different and influence the SQ, to me at least it seems that the best way is to play back the digital files directly without the need of a disc and transport for anything except Direct Cut LPs of course.
Convenient and capable of very good SQ yes, but rbcd discs even Mscaled do not sound as realistic as hi res via my humble Qutest/HMS macbookpro and usb all else equal.
I personally use a mac because I am a photographer. But all sessions I've been to have used PCs for recording and playback of native masters.
CD transport playback will always be second generation and lower res than the hi res master.
Nobody records at 16/44.1 since many years.

Cheers CC
 
Sep 4, 2020 at 9:02 AM Post #15,395 of 27,068
What kind of optical cable are you using, and does it make any difference with Dave?
I always used Sys Concept optical cables in different length and form, never had problems up to 24/192.
Now I read that glass fiber (as opposed to plastic, like the Sys Concept) cables might perform better than plastic because bla bla bla...
Any direct experience on the subject is welcome.
I'm actually using a cheap Sonorous one because it was the only one in stock and i just wanted to a/b optical and usb on it with my Sony TA-ZH1ES. Optical is definitely better.
After returning the Sony to Amazon i was left with my Mojo as my only Dac untill Dave got delivered. I had been using it only with Usb out of various windows laptops for the past 3 years, and was pretty shocked to find the difference Optical made on it compared to Usb.
This cable i'm using does drop out when there's a 24/192 signal but it didn't bother me since i've only used those for my Qobuz trial and decided to stick with Tidal. I am curious to order a higher quality Optical cable but the only improvements claimed are lower signal loss (and i only need 2m) and lower jitter (but supposedly Dave is immune anyway)
 
Sep 4, 2020 at 9:43 AM Post #15,396 of 27,068
This is what QED says to justify 150 euros for an optical cable :
ULTRA LOW JITTER / ULTRA LOW LOSS
QED have calculated that jitter (or distortions caused by timing differences between the different light paths in conventional optical cables) could typically reach up to 145ps. In Reference Optical Quartz, timing errors are virtually eliminated, introducing less distortion, jitter and ultra low loss < 0.03 dB/m.

And Rob :

2. When I add 2 uS (that's 2,000,000 pS of jitter) to the data input from the AP using optical or coax I measure absolutely no change whatsoever. Now that on its own is not enough, as I have had situations before where unmeasurable effects are audible - but not concerning jitter. I have always been able to hear an effect then measure it.

So i wouldn't worry about it with Dave (Probably other dacs as well tbh).
 
Sep 4, 2020 at 11:07 AM Post #15,397 of 27,068
This is what QED says to justify 150 euros for an optical cable :
ULTRA LOW JITTER / ULTRA LOW LOSS
QED have calculated that jitter (or distortions caused by timing differences between the different light paths in conventional optical cables) could typically reach up to 145ps. In Reference Optical Quartz, timing errors are virtually eliminated, introducing less distortion, jitter and ultra low loss < 0.03 dB/m.

And Rob :
So i wouldn't worry about it with Dave (Probably other dacs as well tbh).

So based on this, it seems like any cheap optical source would do instead of spending so much money on high-end usb streamer. In other dacs, optical migh not be the best if it can’t handle the jitter. I’m assuming this jitter handling is also true for the mscaler.

I’m back to using my optical cable after a week with usb. It does sound better especially in the bass. Music seems to have more weight and impact than usb. Very slight differences. My only issue is my cable can’t handle 192k, so might spring for a glass one. I had a cheap one in the past that actually worked better but seemed to have lost it.
 
Sep 4, 2020 at 12:31 PM Post #15,398 of 27,068
Interesting, and yes hardrives can and do fail.
But since the late 1980s I have not seen ANY classical recording session using either analogue tape or direct to disc recording.
But they sure could sound very good indeed.
Virtually ALL recordings made since the early 90s are made with computers and I can't see or actually hear how transferring a digital file to a physical disc could or would, in any way improve on what's been stored digitally as ones and zeros on a harddrive?
Safe storage is another subject imho.
When I can clearly hear that transports sound different and influence the SQ, to me at least it seems that the best way is to play back the digital files directly without the need of a disc and transport for anything except Direct Cut LPs of course.
Convenient and capable of very good SQ yes, but rbcd discs even Mscaled do not sound as realistic as hi res via my humble Qutest/HMS macbookpro and usb all else equal.
I personally use a mac because I am a photographer. But all sessions I've been to have used PCs for recording and playback of native masters.
CD transport playback will always be second generation and lower res than the hi res master.
Nobody records at 16/44.1 since many years.

Cheers CC

I think you are simplifying the situation somewhat. Virtually every digital storage mechanism, from optical to magnetic tape to spinning disc hard drive to SD card to SSD involves ”storage” and transport”. There’s no way to get bits into a DAC without storage and transport, even if you use WiFi. Given the error prone nature of every storage and transport mechanism, error correction is absolutely vital to ensuring bits are not corrupted during either storage or transport. At the end of the day, long term reliability is everything. In my experience, regardless of convenience, nothing beats optical storage. Nothing. I own no storage media from the mid 1980s that still works except my CDs. The other storage media — 5.25“ floppy disks, Zip disks, SCSI disks, the list is endless — have all disappeared or don’t work. SD cards are so flimsy I don’t trust them at all. I own about 6000 CDs, including perhaps 800 SACDs, and they’re not going anywhere. I’ve ripped them all, but I don’t trust my hard drive storage media for long term archival storage. I could put in all in the cloud using my Dropbox. Expensive for one. In 10 years, will Dropbox survive? Who knows? I certainly enjoy Roon and Quobuz for high Rez. Will either Roon or Quobuz survive in 10 years? Who knows? These are not highly profitable businesses. The vast majority of humanity, like 99.99%, are perfectly happy with MP3s. High Rez is for geeks. I for one see no alternative but optical media for long term reliable storage of music. Of course, my house could burn down in one of these California fires. I’d have bigger problems then, and my music would be the least of them!

As for high Rez, I‘m waiting to hear a high Rez recording that sounds better than the best red book cd I have heard through my CEC TL0, upscale through a really good processor like the M-scaler. I certainly enjoy my 800 SACDs. Do any of them sound better than my best red book CDs? Nope. I have over 1000 classical and jazz 24 bit 96khz classical, folk, jazz and rock albums in my Qobuz playlist. I can’t say any of them sounds better than the best red book upscaled CDs. I think high Rez is primarily useful for giving some extra bandwidth during recording, just lie internally a lot of Mac use 64 bit width signal processing for Core Audio.

Can you actually hear the difference between 24 bit and 16 bit audio? I would argue this is theoretically impossible. Many listening tests have been done and reported in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society journal by Floyd Toole and others. These have not shown significant differences in audio perception. It’s not surprising why. The average moving coil loudspeaker has typically 1-5% harmonic distortion when played around 90dB. In the bass, it’s much worse. Distortion of 10% in the bass frequencies is quite typical. My Quads are a complete exception. The original Quad 63 has less than 0.1% THD above 100 hz up to about 96dB. This is orders of magnitude better than any moving coil loudspeaker. Headphones are no better.

Now, through such a distorted physical medium like a moving coil loudspeaker or headphone, you are trying to argue that you can hear the difference between 16 bit audio (with distortion less than -90dB, or 0.001%, and subjectively lower when properly dithered), and 24 bit audio (which theoretically goes down to -140dB, but no DAC on the planet can truly resolve 24 bit audio regardless of the marketing brochures). I don’t buy your logic. Of course, subjectively we all want to believe high Rez must sound better. DSD must sound better, right? I haven’t found that to the case in my experience. It’s not surprising why. No analog reproduction medium (preamp, amp, moving coil speaker etc.) exists that comes remotely close to meeting even 16 bit digital bandwidth, forget 24 bit or 32 bit. Analog distortion is 10,000 times worse than 16 bit audio. Compare the measurement of a $100 CD player with the world‘s best headphone or loudspeaker. The CD player far far less distortion, far higher dynamic range, and much much flatter frequency response. There‘s a reason why Stereophile never publishes distortion measurements of loudspeakers. They are so bad it’s a sick joke. They are incredibly nonlinear. Huge intermodulation distortion. It’s a miracle a voice sounds like a voice when we hear it reproduces, it’s more a tribute to our brain given the total hash loudspeakers make of the input given to them. Feed a square wave through a loudspeaker, and you get gibberish out, except for the rare phase true loudspeaker like the Quads.
 
Sep 4, 2020 at 1:25 PM Post #15,399 of 27,068
So based on this, it seems like any cheap optical source would do instead of spending so much money on high-end usb streamer. In other dacs, optical migh not be the best if it can’t handle the jitter. I’m assuming this jitter handling is also true for the mscaler.

I’m back to using my optical cable after a week with usb. It does sound better especially in the bass. Music seems to have more weight and impact than usb. Very slight differences. My only issue is my cable can’t handle 192k, so might spring for a glass one. I had a cheap one in the past that actually worked better but seemed to have lost it.

So I found my old optical cable in the garage. It’s an old Radio Shack cable for probably under $10. My other one is a Chord Cable Company for probably close to $100 new. So surprisingly they do sound slightly different. The Radio Shack one is darker with more texture. It sounds better of the two. Possible since expensive one can’t handle 192k, it’s affecting how it sounds with 44k. Kind of shocked I’m hearing any differences.

In past I’ve noticed optical didn’t sounds as smooth on my Mac mini when running roon as the core. When I moved it off to the iMac and made the Mac mini just an end point, it improved. So based on my own observations, it seems even optical sources can sound different. Think I’ll leave it with Radio Shack cable for now and maybe try glass one later.
 
Sep 5, 2020 at 4:46 AM Post #15,400 of 27,068
The king is dead, long live the king !
I knew that at some point I'll move from M Scaler + TT 2 to the Dave. It was inevitable.
How I feel about that ?
Resolution and exceptional 3D like imaging - that's the words that come first to my mind.
I'll write some more impressions in couple of days.
DSC_3522.JPG
 
Sep 5, 2020 at 5:16 AM Post #15,401 of 27,068
The king is dead, long live the king !
I knew that at some point I'll move from M Scaler + TT 2 to the Dave. It was inevitable.
How I feel about that ?
Resolution and exceptional 3D like imaging - that's the words that come first to my mind.
I'll write some more impressions in couple of days.
What is your setup? Headphones? Source?
 
Sep 5, 2020 at 6:07 AM Post #15,403 of 27,068
Battery powered Hifiberry digi+pro (as roon endpoint) via toslink to the Dave. And headphones are Audeze LCD3.
Very interesting, I am actually looking for a budget network player with Optical out and Ethernet to connect to my Dave (the Roon core will sit elsewhere).
This would allow me to avoid using my massive desktop PC as a Roon endpoint.
Using an optical connection to Dave I don't care about mains related noise and I trust that the jitter will be properly handled by the Dave. The only issue I have is the loudness of my big PC. Although it's liquid cooled when the main fan spins fast it is extremely noisy, not compatible with critical listening.

That's why I'd like to consider a small, cheap streamer with Ethernet connection and optical out.
 
Sep 5, 2020 at 6:18 AM Post #15,404 of 27,068
Very interesting, I am actually looking for a budget network player with Optical out and Ethernet to connect to my Dave (the Roon core will sit elsewhere).
This would allow me to avoid using my massive desktop PC as a Roon endpoint.
Using an optical connection to Dave I don't care about mains related noise and I trust that the jitter will be properly handled by the Dave. The only issue I have is the loudness of my big PC. Although it's liquid cooled when the main fan spins fast it is extremely noisy, not compatible with critical listening.

That's why I'd like to consider a small, cheap streamer with Ethernet connection and optical out.

A bluesound node 2i could be an interesting proposition.
 

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