CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[adrianm]

I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.

I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
What is the general consensus at the moment?
Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar, or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?

I've tested my Jitterbug and can't find any difference. And i've found the source to make such an insignificant difference that i won't bother.
I, for one am sticking with pc->optical->Dave. Not sure if i'm even getting the M-scaler, hate the clutter.

 

[AndrewOld]

I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.

I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
What is the general consensus at the moment?
Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar, or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?

It would be silly not to try the Jitterbug first, especially since it is so cheap. Iirc Rob said that if you use a laptop, running it from battery was most beneficial, with a Jitterbug the second best if you couldn’t run from batteries. Seems to me if stuff is so sensitive that there is a good argument for running Roon Core remotely and using as low a power a device as possible, possibly battery-powered, as an endpoint. With such an architecture all the possibly noise inducing heavy processing is kept away from whatever susceptibilities the DAVE has. You could even try that strategy for the price of a CCK if you have an iPhone. Checkout @musickid s posts - he uses an iPod as a Roon endpoint. Battery-powered, no processing, what more (or less) could you want?

 

[doraymon]

I've tested my Jitterbug and can't find any difference. And i've found the source to make such an insignificant difference that i won't bother.
I, for one am sticking with pc->optical->Dave. Not sure if i'm even getting the M-scaler, hate the clutter.

I was running with a MacBook Pro -> Optical -> Dave, but the macbook died and new ones don't have optical out anymore...
That's why I went for the NUC and I have the option to either plug it directly to the Dave or place it far from it and use a different end point connected to the Dave.

It would be silly not to try the Jitterbug first, especially since it is so cheap. Iirc Rob said that if you use a laptop, running it from battery was most beneficial, with a Jitterbug the second best if you couldn’t run from batteries. Seems to me if stuff is so sensitive that there is a good argument for running Roon Core remotely and using as low a power a device as possible, possibly battery-powered, as an endpoint. With such an architecture all the possibly noise inducing heavy processing is kept away from whatever susceptibilities the DAVE has. You could even try that strategy for the price of a CCK if you have an iPhone. Checkout @musickid s posts - he uses an iPod as a Roon endpoint. Battery-powered, no processing, what more (or less) could you want?

Yes I have a CCK and an iPad mini I could use as Roon Endpoint. I will give it a try.

 

[audio_1]

I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.

I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
What is the general consensus at the moment?
Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar, or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?

I don't think a Jitterbug will improve the sound. Isolation is the key by preventing ground loops. I use an Intona 7055B USB isolator between my NUC8i3BEH NUC and Blu 2. It provides galvanic and capacitive isolation on the USB data and power lines. It is a great upgrade IMHO. Bass is more resolved, textured and the sound is more musical

 

[AndrewOld]

I don't think a Jitterbug will improve the sound. Isolation is the key by preventing ground loops. I use an Intona 7055B USB isolator between my NUC8i3BEH NUC and Blu 2. It provides galvanic and capacitive isolation on the USB data and power lines. It is a great upgrade IMHO. Bass is more resolved, textured and the sound is more musical

Here‘s the post where Rob says a Jitterbug will improve things with a DAVE, though not as much as running your laptop from battery.

I have finally gotten round to listen to the AQ jitterbug, as a quest to understand where the RF noise problems from the source was coming from - via the mains or the USB.

Firstly - very much - YMWV as RF noise is a funny thing and source noise may affect other parts of the system, so the findings here may well be different in other circumstances.

So I did the tests with just a Win 10 lap-top (jRiver), Dave and pair of Nighthawks, in a hotel in Singapore. The idea was to try to evaluate whether the SQ improvements I heard when disconnecting the lap-top from mains and running off battery was from the USB connection or via the mains supply. Now Dave is galvanically isolated from LF and RF noise, and this makes a huge difference in SQ. But the galvanic isolation is not perfect as there exists a 2pF coupling capacitance. Now you may think 2pF is nothing to worry about; but at 1 GHz it is nearly 80 ohms impedance, so RF noise in the GHz will couple through - and I know that GHz noise is significant in causing noise floor modulation and hence changing the sound quality.

I used my design lap-top, an MSI Intel i7 machine, as it will be noisier than my music lap-top (HP Pavilion) which is very power efficient. This is so it would be easier to hear any changes.

So adding the Audioquest Jitter Bug did indeed improve SQ - it was fairly easy to hear it, with it sounding smoother, warmer, with less sibilance and glare. Instrument separation and focus was better. These are exactly the kind of change I hear with lower RF noise, so it was not unexpected.

Next was to do the listening test with the lap-top on batteries - and then it became impossible to reliably hear the effect of the jitter bug. Additionally, the improvements heard were much smaller with the jitter bug connected when you disconnect the lap-top power. Here is a rough assessment of SQ performance with 100% for best, 0% for worst:

Lap-top battery power, no jitter bug 100%
Lap-top battery power with jitter bug 100%
Lap-top mains power with jitter bug 75%
Lap-top mains power no jitter bug 0%

So what does this tell us? Basically the most significant path of RF is residual coupling via the USB, not via the mains supply as the jitterbug alone gets you most of the way.

Use the jitter bug for mains powered USB sources - it is worth the small cost.

The best sound is still with a Win 10 lap-top on battery and for critical listening that is what I do. Battery operation and Dave's galvanic isolation means effectively perfect RF noise isolation from the source.

Note also Win 10 is technically better than iOS xx, Android or Linux as these driver less USB's do not guarantee bit perfect data at the DAC; but Chord's Win driver does resend faulty packets, so we can guarantee bit perfect data for Dave. It would be interesting to do a listening test of driver less against Win.

Rob

 

[adrianm]

Here‘s the post where Rob says a Jitterbug will improve things with a DAVE, though not as much as running your laptop from battery.

I know, i've read it and tested all 3 scenarios myself + optical out of a desktop pc. With my headphones and the Tidal stuff i listened to the Jitterbug made no perceptible difference.The "biggest" difference was Desktop Optical vs Usb. After that Usb + Jitterbug on both pc and laptop...it took me 20 + songs to find one where there was a difference. Soundstage depth improved slightly i guess on the laptop with a battery vs the desktop. But difference was so slight it's not even worth the hassle. One instrument was moved back a few degrees. Everything else was identical. And that was only apparent on one track with very focused a/b testing.
Now people are going to say Tidal sucks and Qobuz is a lot better but same story a/b testing there. Can't find any of the stuff i listen to in high res and even then differences aren't always there, when they are (Mostly some live music) it's pretty awesome but the interface is a lot worse and content isn't really enough to make me switch.
I'm happy to have to come to the conclusion that Dave is pretty much immune (For my setup,music,etc) to source so i'd rather not spend any more time obsessing over small differences from expensive streamers.
Even if a 3k Innuous makes a 10% difference in sound quality for all tracks (which i very doubt much to be the case after my testing), it's still not worth as much to me as the comfort of using my dedicated media buttons on my mechanical keyboard compared to fussing around with my phone or ipad every time i want to switch a track.
My advice to doraymon is to go for ease of use over Frankenstein setups in an endless search for expensive incremental upgrades that may or may not be noticeable.

 

[Muataz]

I am changing my source to a NUC10i7NFH running as Roon Core and directly feeding my Dave via USB. The NUC will be powered by a linear power supply (HD Plex, 200W) and the Ethernet switch attached to it by an iFi iPower.

I remember having read tons of threads (including ones by Rob Watts himself) discussing the benefits of some kind of USB "filter" (e.g. the Jitterbug) to reduce the noise coming from the mains. Since then however I completely abandoned the topic.
What is the general consensus at the moment?
Shall I get a Jitterbug or similar, or invest another fortune in a good network player I don't really need?

There are some excellent usb interface but expensive like :

s://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/usb-digital-interface/products/singxer-su-6-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond-clock-usb-digital-interfac

Or get iDefender+ with ipower x.

 

[AndrewOld]

My advice to doraymon is to go for ease of use over Frankenstein setups in an endless search for expensive incremental upgrades that may or may not be noticeable.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[AndrewOld]

There are some excellent usb interface but expensive like :

s://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/usb-digital-interface/products/singxer-su-6-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond-clock-usb-digital-interfac

There’s no reason to suppose that gives any benefit. It is a very fancy USB to s/pdif or AES or HDMI converter none of which is necessary for a DAVE since it has a USB input. What merit could there be in adding an unnecessary conversion stage, especially as it has a lot of redundancy?

 

[doraymon]

I know, i've read it and tested all 3 scenarios myself + optical out of a desktop pc. With my headphones and the Tidal stuff i listened to the Jitterbug made no perceptible difference.The "biggest" difference was Desktop Optical vs Usb. After that Usb + Jitterbug on both pc and laptop...it took me 20 + songs to find one where there was a difference. Soundstage depth improved slightly i guess on the laptop with a battery vs the desktop. But difference was so slight it's not even worth the hassle. One instrument was moved back a few degrees. Everything else was identical. And that was only apparent on one track with very focused a/b testing.
Now people are going to say Tidal sucks and Qobuz is a lot better but same story a/b testing there. Can't find any of the stuff i listen to in high res and even then differences aren't always there, when they are (Mostly some live music) it's pretty awesome but the interface is a lot worse and content isn't really enough to make me switch.
I'm happy to have to come to the conclusion that Dave is pretty much immune (For my setup,music,etc) to source so i'd rather not spend any more time obsessing over small differences from expensive streamers.
Even if a 3k Innuous makes a 10% difference in sound quality for all tracks (which i very doubt much to be the case after my testing), it's still not worth as much to me as the comfort of using my dedicated media buttons on my mechanical keyboard compared to fussing around with my phone or ipad every time i want to switch a track.
My advice to doraymon is to go for ease of use over Frankenstein setups in an endless search for expensive incremental upgrades that may or may not be noticeable.

I agree on the less is better, so far I had a MacBook via optical.
I will move the NUC to another room and use my main PC as Roon endpoint connected to the Dave via optical (it is already by the way).
Somehow I had not thought about this solution, it’s probably the easiest and will guarantee the best isolation for Dave. Probably better than a battery powered laptop?
Opening another can of worms...

 

[doraymon]

There are some excellent usb interface but expensive like :

s://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/usb-digital-interface/products/singxer-su-6-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond-clock-usb-digital-interfac

Or get iDefender+ with ipower x.

I tried the Singxer in an older setup with Hugo2 and could not hear any benefits.
Same thing with Sotm sms-200 ultra, tax-USB ultra and again, no benefits with Hugo2 at least that I can remember.
That’s when I decided to sell 5k$ worth of boxes, add another 5k and go for Dave only...

 

[adrianm]

That’s when I decided to sell 5k$ worth of boxes, add another 5k and go for Dave only...

Best decision ever I decided to go for straight for Dave for the same reason more or less. A/B'd Dave vs my Sony TA-ZH1ES (And others). Also A/B's each of them with a Naim Nd555 with external PSU and a Node2i (which sounded worse than my laptop). There was a much more noticeable difference on the Sony than on Dave. And any difference i at least partly attributed to coax on Node vs Usb on the Naim.

 

[adrianm]

Speaking of noisy pc audio, this just came out 40 minutes ago :

 

[number1sixerfan]

My Dave was supposed to be here tomorrow just in time for the long weekend, but got delayed to Tuesday.

I didn't care much about timing until I remembered the long weekend lol. Oh well, taking a few days off the following week so I'm still really looking forward to spending time with it when it arrives. Will report back when I can.

 

[doraymon]

My Dave was supposed to be here tomorrow just in time for the long weekend, but got delayed to Tuesday.

I didn't care much about timing until I remembered the long weekend lol. Oh well, taking a few days off the following week so I'm still really looking forward to spending time with it when it arrives. Will report back when I can.

It's going to change your audiophile life. Guaranteed.
I feel so privileged I could afford it and I think everyone should be given the opportunity regardless of the wallet.
It should be like love!!