Great post learpot you hit the nail on the head when you mention "as musicians intended".
Chord Electronics - Blu Mk. 2 - The Official Thread
- Thread starter ChordElectronics
- Start date
DaveRedRef-III
500+ Head-Fier
Finding Cables to further reveal the timbre and harmonics presented by the Blu MkII M Scaler + Dave combination?
I visited Abbey Road studios for a lecture last year. Whilst there I noticed that music played both in the lecture and in the various studios contained noticeably higher instrument harmonic content and superior timbre compared to my system at home. I decided to listen to a number of products to understand this more but I didn’t realise that a primary weak link in my system was my analogue interconnect cables until I fortuitously tried a set of Townshend audio F1 Fractal cables. It wasn’t all plain sailing though!
Max Townshend is a bit of a maverick imo. (I mean that as a compliment.) He has a reputation for turning ‘considered HIFI thinking’ on its head. Some of his ‘different’ solutions are EDCT (Enhanced Deep Cryogenic Treatment) cable process, sprung seismic speaker podiums and more recently Fractal cable process which is then ‘hung in air’ as opposed to clothed in close fitting dielectric jacket. First the industry seems to doubt him, then it believes him and then it follows him. According to industry comments by HIFI reviewers, many years ago Max made the mistake of openly explaining how he achieved his EDCT process, only for his process to be copied by most serious HIFI cable manufacturers around the world. Reviewers say he is not making the same mistake with his Fractal treatment and I don’t blame him. This is no ordinary copper cable.
The problems:
So when I received some Fractal cables to demo, I put the Interconnect cables into my system first and blimey! I lost bass, warmth, the sound went thin and the top end frequencies were grainy/edgy and not nice at all, particularly when listening to strings. I immediately heard a big improvement in resolution though even then and very accurate, in fact shockingly true timbre too. It was confirmation if nothing else that resolution = improved transient response = better instrument Timbre but what was wrong with warmth, graininess etc? After a little thinking and further listening I was convinced this problem was RFI related. At first I thought the F1 cables were leaking RFI into the system but some tests with ferrites soon showed this was ‘not’ the case. In fact I found the cable to be as impervious as a digital light-pipe where RFI was concerned.
So now I checked my ‘digital’ cables by adding more ferrites and there it was ..........but how come I did not hear this with my original analogue XLR IC in situ? Well, I have thought about this a lot and I strongly suspect the primary reason I didn’t hear RFI with the original interconnect is because like almost all other cables they have a close-fitting dielectric jacket and as the sound signal travels on analogue cables along the ‘outer surface of the metal’ it is impeded and rejected by the close fitting dielectric jacket. The F1 Fractal on the other hand has a layer of ‘air’ around the metal and the dielectric layers are outside the air layer and whilst that is desired and considered ‘the’ perfect solution by a number of experts on the subject, if the signal is fed with RFI ‘already there in the signal’ the F1 seemingly has no defence. The perfect answer would of course be a ‘digital’ F1 Fractal cable pair between the Blu MkII M Scaler and Dave so as not to allow RFI into the signal in the first place but the digital F1 cable does not exist (as yet).
Now I could have just buried my head in the sand and gone back to my original analogue cables and shot the messenger when I first encountered these cable problems. I could have just sent them back and said they are not compatible with my system. In the past I may have done exactly that and I don’t doubt that has happened with some people who have demo’d the Fractal F1 but what made me ‘cling on’, investigate and subsequently resolve my problem is the following:
When resolution, timbre and dynamics are correct in this way the music hangs on your heart.
I think Max Townshend may have unwittingly invented an ‘RFI leakage diviner’.
Akin to the Water Board inventing a piece of kit to tell them where all their leaks are in a postal district. The resolution is so high if you have an RFI problem ‘anywhere’ in your system or indeed a vibration affecting your tone you will know it. I guess that is its weakness in that it will highlight any limitation or failure. I have never encountered a cable or piece of kit which was more revealing of flaws in the system. I spent two weeks ‘full time’ testing and correcting weaknesses to get the best from these cables and I eagerly await a digital version of the Fractal F1 so as to get rid of the need for ferrites and perhaps improve tone and harmonics further.
Here is a design graphic cross-section of Fractal F1 interconnect:
http://www.townshendaudio.com/f1-fractal-interconnects/
Some of my conclusions:
These are a couple of interesting comments I came across from leading cable designers when researching cable design:
Geoff Merrigan from Tellurium Q
"It is not just about pure conduction (he means - how many 9’s of metal purity manufacturers quote) because any conductor from any cable manufacturer on this planet will act as an electronic filter and by that I mean that the relative frequencies relative to one another get shifted with each material they go through and are also affected by the various insulators, geometries, shielding etc.. The interesting thing is that various materials affect different frequencies in dissimilar amounts. So it really is a finely tuned balancing act to make sure that you get a natural, transparent transmission. This takes a LOT more research than people would imagine."
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2018/02/tellurium-q-statement-cable-loom-review.html
Josh Clark of Transparent Audio talking about their Reference Gen5 cables:
"Another problem with RF noise frequencies is that they tend to result in a distortion we can hear in the upper audio frequencies, where most musical instruments have their harmonics."
I visited Abbey Road studios for a lecture last year. Whilst there I noticed that music played both in the lecture and in the various studios contained noticeably higher instrument harmonic content and superior timbre compared to my system at home. I decided to listen to a number of products to understand this more but I didn’t realise that a primary weak link in my system was my analogue interconnect cables until I fortuitously tried a set of Townshend audio F1 Fractal cables. It wasn’t all plain sailing though!
Max Townshend is a bit of a maverick imo. (I mean that as a compliment.) He has a reputation for turning ‘considered HIFI thinking’ on its head. Some of his ‘different’ solutions are EDCT (Enhanced Deep Cryogenic Treatment) cable process, sprung seismic speaker podiums and more recently Fractal cable process which is then ‘hung in air’ as opposed to clothed in close fitting dielectric jacket. First the industry seems to doubt him, then it believes him and then it follows him. According to industry comments by HIFI reviewers, many years ago Max made the mistake of openly explaining how he achieved his EDCT process, only for his process to be copied by most serious HIFI cable manufacturers around the world. Reviewers say he is not making the same mistake with his Fractal treatment and I don’t blame him. This is no ordinary copper cable.
The problems:
So when I received some Fractal cables to demo, I put the Interconnect cables into my system first and blimey! I lost bass, warmth, the sound went thin and the top end frequencies were grainy/edgy and not nice at all, particularly when listening to strings. I immediately heard a big improvement in resolution though even then and very accurate, in fact shockingly true timbre too. It was confirmation if nothing else that resolution = improved transient response = better instrument Timbre but what was wrong with warmth, graininess etc? After a little thinking and further listening I was convinced this problem was RFI related. At first I thought the F1 cables were leaking RFI into the system but some tests with ferrites soon showed this was ‘not’ the case. In fact I found the cable to be as impervious as a digital light-pipe where RFI was concerned.
So now I checked my ‘digital’ cables by adding more ferrites and there it was ..........but how come I did not hear this with my original analogue XLR IC in situ? Well, I have thought about this a lot and I strongly suspect the primary reason I didn’t hear RFI with the original interconnect is because like almost all other cables they have a close-fitting dielectric jacket and as the sound signal travels on analogue cables along the ‘outer surface of the metal’ it is impeded and rejected by the close fitting dielectric jacket. The F1 Fractal on the other hand has a layer of ‘air’ around the metal and the dielectric layers are outside the air layer and whilst that is desired and considered ‘the’ perfect solution by a number of experts on the subject, if the signal is fed with RFI ‘already there in the signal’ the F1 seemingly has no defence. The perfect answer would of course be a ‘digital’ F1 Fractal cable pair between the Blu MkII M Scaler and Dave so as not to allow RFI into the signal in the first place but the digital F1 cable does not exist (as yet).
Now I could have just buried my head in the sand and gone back to my original analogue cables and shot the messenger when I first encountered these cable problems. I could have just sent them back and said they are not compatible with my system. In the past I may have done exactly that and I don’t doubt that has happened with some people who have demo’d the Fractal F1 but what made me ‘cling on’, investigate and subsequently resolve my problem is the following:
- F1 Resolution - ‘off the scale’ - In fact I really wonder if it’s possible to hear greater resolution than this. One HIFI reviewer said of the F1 Fractal "this may be the final frontier" and I wonder if he is not right in that assertion. Others may equal it in time but I genuinely wonder if this resolution will be surpassed. I heard resolution from Red Book equal or superior to the resolution getting through from 24/96 running on another highly regarded manufacturers flagship £5k+ interconnects.
- F1 Timbre/tone - World Class
- F1 musicality and/or emotion - deeply affecting.
- F1 Frequency presentation - mids and highs sound utterly flat imo. Bass probably the same but will need more listening.
- F1 Dynamics - alive and very balanced across the frequency spectrum (when fed with an RFI clean signal of course)
When resolution, timbre and dynamics are correct in this way the music hangs on your heart.
I think Max Townshend may have unwittingly invented an ‘RFI leakage diviner’.
Akin to the Water Board inventing a piece of kit to tell them where all their leaks are in a postal district. The resolution is so high if you have an RFI problem ‘anywhere’ in your system or indeed a vibration affecting your tone you will know it. I guess that is its weakness in that it will highlight any limitation or failure. I have never encountered a cable or piece of kit which was more revealing of flaws in the system. I spent two weeks ‘full time’ testing and correcting weaknesses to get the best from these cables and I eagerly await a digital version of the Fractal F1 so as to get rid of the need for ferrites and perhaps improve tone and harmonics further.Here is a design graphic cross-section of Fractal F1 interconnect:
http://www.townshendaudio.com/f1-fractal-interconnects/
Some of my conclusions:
- A lack of believable timbre in an M Scaler/Dave system, will likely be due to limits of analogue cable resolution and perhaps cable frequency balance may be impeding this aspect of the sound also. It’s all there to be found with Blu/Dave.
- A lack of natural harmonics - is probably representative of RFI in the system and again, insufficient ‘resolution’ from analogue cable may also be limiting what the Dave is sending out.
- When the sound is grainy and edgy with mass strings - this could of course be a bad recording/digital mastering conversion but more likely I am hearing RFI in the system and cables will likely be a contributor, if not the primary contributor.
These are a couple of interesting comments I came across from leading cable designers when researching cable design:
Geoff Merrigan from Tellurium Q
"It is not just about pure conduction (he means - how many 9’s of metal purity manufacturers quote) because any conductor from any cable manufacturer on this planet will act as an electronic filter and by that I mean that the relative frequencies relative to one another get shifted with each material they go through and are also affected by the various insulators, geometries, shielding etc.. The interesting thing is that various materials affect different frequencies in dissimilar amounts. So it really is a finely tuned balancing act to make sure that you get a natural, transparent transmission. This takes a LOT more research than people would imagine."
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2018/02/tellurium-q-statement-cable-loom-review.html
Josh Clark of Transparent Audio talking about their Reference Gen5 cables:
"Another problem with RF noise frequencies is that they tend to result in a distortion we can hear in the upper audio frequencies, where most musical instruments have their harmonics."
Last edited:
I recently came across Iconoclast cables. https://www.iconoclastcable.com/index.htm They have been designed by Galen Gareis, at the Belden Engineering Center in Richmond, Indian. Galen Gareis appears to be to cables what Rob Watts is to Digital design, i.e. a genius. The design principles are all based on calculation, not on subjective opinion, that appeals to me as an engineer. The design objective is to reduce phase shift and timing errors across the audio frequency spectrum, to improve coherence and obviously sound quality. I hope to order speaker cables and Iconoclast 1x4 "Generation 2" RCA cables when these are available in March. Has any one an experience of Iconoclast cables? I hope these cables will compliment the Dave and Blu II / M-scaler,, making it possible to hear their full potential.
rrolls
New Head-Fier
A digital cable pair that fulfills your expectations does exist:
The core is a silver wire within a slightly larger PTFE tube.
Its cross section is square, so there is a minimum of contacts to the tube,
this is even better than a round wire.
I run two 3m pairs with 40 Ferrites with great results.
It is important, that the Ferrites are the correct ones:
74271622S for cables up 12.5mm,
74271633S for cables up to 8mm, from Wurth.
There is a hidden feature in these Ferrites:
If you look into the open ferrite, you can see 4 tiny plastic pieces.
They separate the halves even if closed, so we have an air gap,
which make the curve more linear and better suited for the blue2.
So if you make your own cable, one may think to use solid Ferrites,
but it is better to still use split ones because of the air gap.
And this is the digital cable with the square wire:
https://audiosensibility.com/blog/p...BNC-Digital-Cable/p/96283366/category=4059160
It is the Signature Silver S/PDIF Digital cable.
DaveRedRef-III
500+ Head-Fier
A digital cable pair that fulfills your expectations does exist:
The core is a silver wire within a slightly larger PTFE tube.
Its cross section is square, so there is a minimum of contacts to the tube,
this is even better than a round wire.
I run two 3m pairs with 40 Ferrites with great results.
It is important, that the Ferrites are the correct ones:
74271622S for cables up 12.5mm,
74271633S for cables up to 8mm, from Wurth.
There is a hidden feature in these Ferrites:
If you look into the open ferrite, you can see 4 tiny plastic pieces.
They separate the halves even if closed, so we have an air gap,
which make the curve more linear and better suited for the blue2.
So if you make your own cable, one may think to use solid Ferrites,
but it is better to still use split ones because of the air gap.
And this is the digital cable with the square wire:
https://audiosensibility.com/blog/p...BNC-Digital-Cable/p/96283366/category=4059160
It is the Signature Silver S/PDIF Digital cable.
Those are the ferrites I am using and they work well rrolls
Thanks for the digital cable links guys. I will look into them too.
Audio 1 do let us know how you get on.
Last edited:
Triode User
Member of the Trade: WAVE High Fidelity
A digital cable pair that fulfills your expectations does exist:
The core is a silver wire within a slightly larger PTFE tube.
Its cross section is square, so there is a minimum of contacts to the tube,
this is even better than a round wire.
I run two 3m pairs with 40 Ferrites with great results.
It is important, that the Ferrites are the correct ones:
74271622S for cables up 12.5mm,
74271633S for cables up to 8mm, from Wurth.
There is a hidden feature in these Ferrites:
If you look into the open ferrite, you can see 4 tiny plastic pieces.
They separate the halves even if closed, so we have an air gap,
which make the curve more linear and better suited for the blue2.
So if you make your own cable, one may think to use solid Ferrites,
but it is better to still use split ones because of the air gap.
And this is the digital cable with the square wire:
https://audiosensibility.com/blog/p...BNC-Digital-Cable/p/96283366/category=4059160
It is the Signature Silver S/PDIF Digital cable.
Thanks for the contribution. I tried exactly those ferrites in the early days of experimenting and they are not bad. Unfortunately like all clip on ferrites they have prongs at both ends which act as pinch points and squeeze the dielectric. I tried taking off the prongs but then the ferrites slide around. It is a neat theory about the little bits of plastic internally but a simpler explanation is that they just hold the split cores in the case and stop them falling out? From my experiments, closer fitting solid core ferrites on a cable are much more effective than the relatively loose clip on versions.
rrolls
New Head-Fier
quote:
The 74271622S is a snap Ferrite Core features best performance (impedance) especially with 2 windings. This STAR-GAP snap ferrite is also features worldwide first split case ferrite with "defined air-gap" (patented) and low magnetic saturation of the material in cases of high DC current applications which therefore gives a low reduction of impedance.
The 74271622S is a snap Ferrite Core features best performance (impedance) especially with 2 windings. This STAR-GAP snap ferrite is also features worldwide first split case ferrite with "defined air-gap" (patented) and low magnetic saturation of the material in cases of high DC current applications which therefore gives a low reduction of impedance.
Triode User
Member of the Trade: WAVE High Fidelity
They are discussing high dc applications leading to core saturation which is not what we have with the cables connecting Blu2. Also, do not confuse their words ‘best performance’ as meaning they are the absolute best!
By the way, I am relying on my own observation on the effects with dozens of different cable diameters and ferrite sizes.
Anyway, this really doesn’t matter as I agree that the ones you are using are good despite the above!
By the way, I am relying on my own observation on the effects with dozens of different cable diameters and ferrite sizes.
Anyway, this really doesn’t matter as I agree that the ones you are using are good despite the above!
DaveRedRef-III
500+ Head-Fier
3 things I have noticed during extensive tests on ferrite characteristics which can negatively affect the SQ if not observed:
1) if ferrites are not placed at equal spacing and mirrored on each digital cable it can be detrimental to both dynamics and musicality
2) it is possible to induce ‘long drawn’, unnatural and slightly screechy ‘S’s If powerful ferrites are used on one part of a single digital cable and not the other
3) If ferrites are placed on or at or very close to the Blu MkII galvanic isolated BNC digital outputs this negatively affects depth and coherence of imaging. (The same is not true of the Dave digital BNC inputs)
1) if ferrites are not placed at equal spacing and mirrored on each digital cable it can be detrimental to both dynamics and musicality
2) it is possible to induce ‘long drawn’, unnatural and slightly screechy ‘S’s If powerful ferrites are used on one part of a single digital cable and not the other
3) If ferrites are placed on or at or very close to the Blu MkII galvanic isolated BNC digital outputs this negatively affects depth and coherence of imaging. (The same is not true of the Dave digital BNC inputs)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but after re-reading Rob Watt's most recent posts on the subject I believe he recommended the following after he did his own listening tests:
- (Qty 16-20, and see post here) https://www.newark.com/wurth-elektronik/74271633s/ferrite-core-split-8mm-100-ohm/dp/08P2342
- (Qty 2, and see post here) https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg00541/bnc-plug-to-plug-1m/dp/AV14131
- (Qty 1, and see post here) https://www.newark.com/wurth-elektr...-snap-ferrite/dp/79Y5591?MER=sy-me-pd-mi-acce
Last edited:
Triode User
Member of the Trade: WAVE High Fidelity
That post was in Sept 2017 which was relatively early days in the matter of getting the best out of Blu2 with ferrited dual BNC cables. Indeed, I am amused to see a post from me there with a first spark of interest in this whole matter.
I suspect that with the benefit of more listening it is possible that Rob Watts may have moved on from him saying in 2017 that 4 ferrites would do the job. I certainly hear improvements with up to 20 ferrites per BNC cable with the mscalers.
HiResGeorge
New Head-Fier
Hi, i thought I would share this link for any discerning audiophile looking for a real bargain -
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chord-El...=item5b4fa34214:g:vdcAAOSwmfhb9rvh:rk:19
f:0
This is from Scotland's top Chord retail and award wiinnng partner
I can vouch for the unbelievable quality of the Chord Blu mkII. CD upsampled to 705.6 against 24 bit resolution / DSD files ? I must admit to struggling to hear a a big difference which cannot justify the high cost of HI Res (mostly re-vamped ) downloads.
Existing CD collections have a new lease of life !
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chord-El...=item5b4fa34214:g:vdcAAOSwmfhb9rvh:rk:19
f:0This is from Scotland's top Chord retail and award wiinnng partner
I can vouch for the unbelievable quality of the Chord Blu mkII. CD upsampled to 705.6 against 24 bit resolution / DSD files ? I must admit to struggling to hear a a big difference which cannot justify the high cost of HI Res (mostly re-vamped ) downloads.
Existing CD collections have a new lease of life !
Sonic77
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2011
- Posts
- 561
- Likes
- 149
Hi audio_1
I own Iconclast speaker cables and Gen 2 ofe xlr cables, I can attest they are the real deal. I've had Cardas cables and Kimber kables and they can't touch Iconoclast cables, you can try them, if you don't like them, just return them. Galen reminds me of Rob Watts too, I wonder what Rob would say about Galens' cable design?
I have Nicks cables on order and can't wait to add those to an already great sounding system.
Thanks for the reply. I am going to try them when the 1x4 RCA cable is available. I am also tempted to try the Wave digital cables.
Sonic77
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2011
- Posts
- 561
- Likes
- 149
If your like others who have tried them you're probably going to be pretty surprised how good they sound, some have said it was like getting an upgrade to a component, that's the kind of difference they heard, me included. Nicks cables hopefully coming next week, cant wait, I'll let you know what I think of them.
Users who are viewing this thread
