Chord Electronics - Blu Mk. 2 - The Official Thread

[ecwl]

Yes. I think just as with headphone upgrades, we all agree that the biggest upgrade is with speakers and room. Fortunately, I'm not moving any time soon and any bigger and better speakers would just make the room acoustics worse. That's why I blew my money on Chord DAVE & Blu2.

But then... Now that you've put the concept of moving to a bigger space and getting bigger speakers in my mind... Oh no... There is no end...

 

[Rob Watts]

I have finally changed my mind about how source-dependent Blu2 is. I think I and many others have said before, compared to other DACs (including the old Chord QBD76HDSD), Chord DAVE is less source-dependent as I can barely hear any difference when I change my computer settings, whereas I have found with my current computer setup, I cannot hear a difference when going through Blu2. I presumed that's because Blu2 has even better galvanic isolation than Chord DAVE. Keep in mind I run a low-powered PC with an SoTM USB card with linear power supply called CAPSv3 Carbon that was designed by Computer Audiophile website. Because I need a bit of parametric EQ for my speakers (since I can't physically remove the bass peaks without turning my living room into an old-school hi-fi shop), I was running JRiver on the headless PC and when listening to Tidal, I run the Tidal app and let JRiver capture the Tidal audio stream to DSP it before sending it to Blu2. So I acknowledge there probably is some degree of noise going from the PC into the Blu2.

For totally unrelated reasons (I got tired of remote desktop into the PC to access Tidal), I decided to try Roon out. Roon is run from my desktop. So I only installed Roon Bridge on the CAPSv3 Carbon for music playback. I shut down JRiver and Tidal. And I was shocked by the sonic improvement in terms of transparency, detail and dynamics. And I don't think it's because the parametric EQ implemented by Roon is significantly different than JRiver. I would say the improvements were much more dramatic than when I switched out my Shunyata Venom power cable and stock BNC cables for Nordost Heimdall 2 cables. So clearly, Blu2 can still improve with better USB sources. And I would concur with what others have said here that if you have the money, you should consider upgrading your USB source first before upgrading power/digital interconnect cables. That said, I was perfectly happy and amazed with Blu2 sound even prior to this recent change. So I wouldn't rush to switch USB sources if that's not in your upgrade pipeline.

Don't make the assumption that DSP implementations won't make any difference to SQ because it is digital - as this is not the case. I have designed DSP EQ before, and getting 200 dB THD and noise with low frequency EQ proved extremely challenging; now that I know we need 350 dB performance to maintain depth and detail resolution, it's for sure that no current DSP implementation can't be audibly improved.

 

[Crgreen]

Where does it end? You improve one thing and it ultimately highlights something else.

I upgraded my speakers 7 years ago with the aim of gradually working at getting my main system good enough to make the most of my speakers over time. Now, my speakers are the weak link! We went to Symphony Hall tonight for a Beethoven concert - the hall is purpose built for concerts with reverb chambers and other physical sound control elements built in. The acoustics are excellent and the sound is really very good. I got back home and played the Leonor Overture which we'd heard live tonight. Everything was there but on a smaller scale - like coming home from the movies and watching widescreen TV. On the one hand, it proved how good my system is now but, on the other, it demonstrated that there is more that can be had if I upgrade my speakers.

Took this photo just before the show started.

That’s Symphony Hall, Birmingham. A wonderful acoustic, which as you say can be modified using the large chambers behind the hall itself. A few years ago, I heard the trio of Jan Garbarek (saxophones), Miroslav Vitous (double-bass) and Peter Erskine (drums) play there, sat a couple of rows back in the circle. Although the trio were some distance away, when they started playing they sounded as if they were a few feet in front of me. Quite uncanny.

So: from being perfectly happy with your set-up, you now want to start the cycle again Perhaps to state the obvious: you’re never going to reproduce the CBSO in full flow in your living room, or even come close. Aiming for that is just chasing a chimera. And also obvious: pretty much any system can be improved in some way. It’s a never-ending cycle, arguably for ever-diminishing benefits.

Personally, I’d rest content for a while, enjoying all the good things your system can do. The ear/brain can easily compensate. For example: I was playing a recording of Toscanini conducting the Philharmonia in Brahms 2 this weekend, a recording made from a live broadcast in 1952. The recording has been spruced up brilliantly by Pristine Classical (whose catalogue I recommend you explore). Nevertheless, the recording is still not up to modern standards, but the electricity of the performance shone through. It was quite exhausting. Not the same as being there, but good enough for me, at home.

A better alternative to new speakers might be a season ticket to Symphony Hall. In the long run, that might give you more musical pleasure, and a less fretful life!

 

[Triode User]

For example: I was playing a recording of Toscanini conducting the Philharmonia in Brahms 2 this weekend, a recording made from a live broadcast in 1952. The recording has been spruced up brilliantly by Pristine Classical (whose catalogue I recommend you explore). Nevertheless, the recording is still not up to modern standards, but the electricity of the performance shone through. It was quite exhausting.

Ah, I heard a vintage Toscanini recording on Radio 3 last weekend and can relate to what you say.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

Don't make the assumption that DSP implementations won't make any difference to SQ because it is digital - as this is not the case. I have designed DSP EQ before, and getting 200 dB THD and noise with low frequency EQ proved extremely challenging; now that I know we need 350 dB performance to maintain depth and detail resolution, it's for sure that no current DSP implementation can't be audibly improved.

In the pro-audio analogue domain 'parametric EQ' was always perceived as less damaging to the integrity of a mix than 'graphic EQ'. The latter also had a bad reputation for interfering with Phase integrity too. Would you say the same is likely to be true in the digital domain Rob?

My dream hifi would be to have a simple transparent digital stereo 3 band parametric mastering eq plus hi and lo pass filters with a graphic representation of the changes being made and an A/B switch to test the changes, (as offered by most Digital Audio Workstations (DAWs) these days). Then I could test my room with something like Room EQ Wizard (REW) software and make corrections accordingly

Visual example of a 10 band software EQ from SSL
http://www.solid-state-logic.co.jp/music/duende/X-EQ/images/X-EQ_large.jpg

 

[Articnoise]

EQ won’t solve anything fundamental caused by bad room acoustics. Hard ware room acoustics OTOH can correct the problem by damp the things that causing reflections in the first place (getting to the root of the problem so to speak). EQ can simply change the loudness level (quantity) at any giving frequency, but not the (quality) blurring and bloom created by reflections, echoes, vibrations and so on. The boost in some frequency is of cause made by something that is not only manifested in uneven FR. If it was, life would be much simpler.

So yes EQ can make things a bit better by tone some FR down (especially in the subbase there human hearing is easier to fool), but the fundamental problem with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 harmonic created by reflections, echoes, vibrations and so on will still be there.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

EQ won’t solve anything fundamental caused by bad room acoustics. Hard ware room acoustics OTOH can correct the problem by damp the things that causing reflections in the first place (getting to the root of the problem so to speak). EQ can simply change the loudness level (quantity) at any giving frequency, but not the (quality) blurring and bloom created by reflections, echoes, vibrations and so on. The boost in some frequency is of cause made by something that is not only manifested in uneven FR. If it was, life would be much simpler.

So yes EQ can make things a bit better by tone some FR down (especially in the subbase there human hearing is easier to fool), but the fundamental problem with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 harmonic created by reflections, echoes, vibrations and so on will still be there.

Have already treated my room and it brought about good results but I feel a combination of room and speaker influences can still be finely Tuned.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

EQ won’t solve anything fundamental caused by bad room acoustics. Hard ware room acoustics OTOH can correct the problem by damp the things that causing reflections in the first place (getting to the root of the problem so to speak). EQ can simply change the loudness level (quantity) at any giving frequency, but not the (quality) blurring and bloom created by reflections, echoes, vibrations and so on. The boost in some frequency is of cause made by something that is not only manifested in uneven FR. If it was, life would be much simpler.

So yes EQ can make things a bit better by tone some FR down (especially in the subbase there human hearing is easier to fool), but the fundamental problem with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 harmonic created by reflections, echoes, vibrations and so on will still be there.

Another aspect of Hifi is that different mixes are mixed using different monitors with sometimes meaningful emphasis on certain frequencies. An example is some Abbey Road mixes were influenced by B&W sound signature in the monitoring phase. This led to an unnatural boost around 3-6khz leaving some mixes quite lacking in presence when listened to via good flat response speakers. A parametric EQ with a 'save' mode could be used for 'specific mixes' in the future. I would pay for such an add on if designed to a high level of transparency.

 

[Articnoise]

Another aspect of Hifi is that different mixes are mixed using different monitors with sometimes meaningful emphasis on certain frequencies. An example is some Abbey Road mixes were influenced by B&W sound signature in the monitoring phase. This led to an unnatural boost around 3-6khz leaving some mixes quite lacking in presence when listened to via good flat response speakers. A parametric EQ with a 'save' mode could be used for 'specific mixes' in the future. I would pay for such an add on if designed to a high level of transparency.

EQ is good to compensate for things EQ “incorrect” in studios. The problem is recording varies depending on so many things (gear, recording engineer’s preference, room etc) that makes its very time consuming to do. If you listening to a lot from one studio like Abbey Road it can be worth it. Ha ha those old British speakers all lacked in presence and sounded way too muffled IMO.

Fortunately most British speakers sounds better today. I went 300 km to buy a pair of Quad ESL-63 electrostatic speakers many years ago. Many well-known audiophiles by that time said that they sound really good with the best midrange. Well they didn’t impressed me and I bought Acoustat Spectra 33 and a subwoofer instead.

I totally agree, to get good sound one needs to choose speakers that match the limits (size and acoustics) of the room. Someone recommend to not sit near the back wall and that’s the number one role in my book at least 1 meter to the back wall and 1,5 is better.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

Another album I have found that plays well through Blu/Dave is 'The First Days of Spring' by Noah and the Whale. The composer and band member Charlie Fink used some instruments recorded at distance in studio, so natural acoustic and positioning can be heard. More interestingly though he made some natural world recordings in the Lake District to use as transitions for the songs. Church bells, babbling brook type of thing. These were recorded binaural — (with a dummy head). For those unfamiliar with this process, a couple of microphone sit in the ears of the dummy head so as to record sound in the same way our brains receive sound. It is thought that this form of recording works much better through headphones (I have not tested that) but the church bells in the distance image pretty well on my system. Just thought I would mention it for those interested.

 

[Christer]

Another album I have found that plays well through Blu/Dave is 'The First Days of Spring' by Noah and the Whale. The composer and band member Charlie Fink used some instruments recorded at distance in studio, so natural acoustic and positioning can be heard. More interestingly though he made some natural world recordings in the Lake District to use as transitions for the songs. Church bells, babbling brook type of thing. These were recorded binaural — (with a dummy head). For those unfamiliar with this process, a couple of microphone sit in the ears of the dummy head so as to record sound in the same way our brains receive sound. It is thought that this form of recording works much better through headphones (I have not tested that) but the church bells in the distance image pretty well on my system. Just thought I would mention it for those interested.

THE BBC PROMS site has quite a few not quite Kosher but still binaural or 3D clips from this season's BBC PROMS in binaural.
I started my day today with Holst's very enjoyable " The Perfect Fool".A work probably composed with fools like me who basically only listen with any attention to classical, in mind.
If you want to hear what binaural can to to soundstage via headphones that short clip is a very good example. And for those who can't handle full scale classical, the clip is only a bit longer, well frankly about twice as long ,as the average pop track for those with a short attention span.

 

[ecwl]

I totally agree, to get good sound one needs to choose speakers that match the limits (size and acoustics) of the room. Someone recommend to not sit near the back wall and that’s the number one role in my book at least 1 meter to the back wall and 1,5 is better.

I would be more specific as I don't believe any golden rules for room acoustics. I think that's why I usually just recommend people to read Jim Smith's Get Better Sound. You can verify the effects of a seat near the back wall with a real-time analyzer or just a microphone with REW (PCs) or Audiotools (iOS). The issues are two-fold. One is that you're more likely (though not necessarily) to have unwanted bass peaks and troughs right at the back wall. Particularly, I find you'll have it in the very low bass but sometimes that extra peak gives speakers a little boost or that little trough actually reduces speaker bass boost by design or positioning. I'm lucky that way in my home that I can get away with having my seat at the back wall. The second problem is first reflections from wall behind the ear. The solution is to put some absorbant or diffusing materials where the tweeter points to on the wall. But the reality is that even if you're moving the seat 1-1.5m away from the back wall, you can still get this effect. It may be reduced as a result but you can potentially get a completely different (and more uneven) bass frequency response, and you will still get first reflections coming from the back wall if you don't put some diffusing or absorbing material on the wall.

 

[nicoludio]

Don't make the assumption that DSP implementations won't make any difference to SQ because it is digital - as this is not the case. I have designed DSP EQ before, and getting 200 dB THD and noise with low frequency EQ proved extremely challenging; now that I know we need 350 dB performance to maintain depth and detail resolution, it's for sure that no current DSP implementation can't be audibly improved.

For those who intend to use digital room correction and/or DSP EQ with the DAVE/Blu 2, do you have any recommendation or tried any of the available EQ software in the market to be able to come to a conclusion as to which might do the least damage to the signal going into the DAVE/Blu 2?

One can hope that DSP EQ (with a nice graphical user interface accessible directly or via PC) was available as a feature for the DAVE/Blu 2 in future

 

[Malcyg]

That’s Symphony Hall, Birmingham. A wonderful acoustic, which as you say can be modified using the large chambers behind the hall itself. A few years ago, I heard the trio of Jan Garbarek (saxophones), Miroslav Vitous (double-bass) and Peter Erskine (drums) play there, sat a couple of rows back in the circle. Although the trio were some distance away, when they started playing they sounded as if they were a few feet in front of me. Quite uncanny.

So: from being perfectly happy with your set-up, you now want to start the cycle again Perhaps to state the obvious: you’re never going to reproduce the CBSO in full flow in your living room, or even come close. Aiming for that is just chasing a chimera. And also obvious: pretty much any system can be improved in some way. It’s a never-ending cycle, arguably for ever-diminishing benefits.

Personally, I’d rest content for a while, enjoying all the good things your system can do. The ear/brain can easily compensate. For example: I was playing a recording of Toscanini conducting the Philharmonia in Brahms 2 this weekend, a recording made from a live broadcast in 1952. The recording has been spruced up brilliantly by Pristine Classical (whose catalogue I recommend you explore). Nevertheless, the recording is still not up to modern standards, but the electricity of the performance shone through. It was quite exhausting. Not the same as being there, but good enough for me, at home.

A better alternative to new speakers might be a season ticket to Symphony Hall. In the long run, that might give you more musical pleasure, and a less fretful life!

Well, you are right on the first point about Symphony Hall Colin, it is a lovely musical environment. It is great for all types of music and it is not restricted - I have seen the likes of Jeff Beck and Joe Satriani there and that kind of music also sounds really good.

With regard to the latter point, don't worry, I'm having fun at the moment. The BluDave combination has been a very motivational development and my wife and I have agreed that we will get the main system really sorted now as it will have to last us the rest of our lives - that's the theory anyway.

This morning, I was in town for an appointment and stopped by an audio retailer that was very close by. They carry all the top headphones and I wanted to check out some of the models that have been causing a buzz in recent time to see how they compared to my HD800's. I tried all the usual suspects and preferred the HiFi Man HE-1000 V2 so I arranged to 'borrow' them for a few days. I got the HE-1000's home earlier and tried them out and was quite blown away. Hi res files played directly into Blu II (no network) and output via Dave's headphone output into the HE-1000's is the best sounding setup that I have ever heard anywhere. It sounds phenomenal. I've just played the Leonore Overture again and, with my eyes closed, it was really so close to being there, I could see it. I have always preferred speakers, but I do now understand the allure of a good headphone setup.

I believe that Rob doesn't believe in burn in, but I'm certain that my Blu II has really opened up now. Whether that is true or not, the Blu Dave I think does represent good value for money because the sound quality it delivers is superb and you could spend a lot more and not better it imo.

 

[Malcyg]

For those who intend to use digital room correction and/or DSP EQ with the DAVE/Blu 2, do you have any recommendation or tried any of the available EQ software in the market to be able to come to a conclusion as to which might do the least damage to the signal going into the DAVE/Blu 2?

One can hope that DSP EQ (with a nice graphical user interface accessible directly or via PC) was available as a feature for the DAVE/Blu 2 in future

Roon EQ sounds pretty good. I use it occasionally to sweeten certain files and I don't perceive that any degradation is incurred.