[JaZZ]

It's a matter of tonal synergy. Note that synergetic effects are created by tonal flaws, cancelling or rather masking each other. Not to forget a general forgivingness introduced by subtle inaccuracies and reduced transparency that come with virtually every electronics component of a certain quality level (and below).

It's a false expectation that ultimate accuracy automatically leads to «good» sound. I've experienced the opposite quite a few times. The reason is – as stated above – that ultimate transparency also leads to ultimate unforgivingness to tonal flaws in the chain.

It makes no sense to search for technical excuses for the better sound via preamp – there are none that I could think of. That said, a passive «preamp» will color the sound less than an active preamp, on the other hand the potential for colorations with a transformer-based attenuator must not be underestimated. There are some added harmonic distortions (from saturation effects), and there are the long (!) wires through which the signal has to run. If you accept that no wire is really neutral, that's a considerable burden. On the other hand I can very well imagine how it makes the sound rounder and more organic. Which may very well also be perceived as «technically» better (dynamics, transient response, imaging...).

All I can say is that in cases where a system sounds subjectively better wirth a needless electronics component in the signal path it has always – yes, always! – paid off to care for the tonal flaws in the chain instead. And if you're really objective, every chain suffers from tonal flaws.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying the sonic preferences of preamp apologists be off the mark, I'm just proposing a technically and sonically more promising approach. Not least in the context of Chord electronics, especially DAVE & Co., with their exceptional accuracy. It would be a shame not to exhaust the most of it.

 

[Deftone]

Would love to know what lateralus sounds like through dave and blu2

 

[Triode User]

It's a matter of tonal synergy. Note that synergetic effects are created by tonal flaws, cancelling or rather masking each other. Not to forget a general forgivingness introduced by subtle inaccuracies and reduced transparency that come with virtually every electronics component of a certain quality level (and below).

It's a false expectation that ultimate accuracy automatically leads to «good» sound. I've experienced the opposite quite a few times. The reason is – as stated above – that ultimate transparency also leads to ultimate unforgivingness to tonal flaws in the chain.

It makes no sense to search for technical excuses for the better sound via preamp – there are none that I could think of. That said, a passive «preamp» will color the sound less than an active preamp, on the other hand the potential for colorations with a transformer-based attenuator must not be underestimated. There are some added harmonic distortions (from saturation effects), and there are the long (!) wires through which the signal has to run. If you accept that no wire is really neutral, that's a considerable burden. On the other hand I can very well imagine how it makes the sound rounder and more organic. Which may very well also be perceived as «technically» better (dynamics, transient response, imaging...).

All I can say is that in cases where a system sounds subjectively better wirth a needless electronics component in the signal path it has always – yes, always! – paid off to care for the tonal flaws in the chain instead. And if you're really objective, every chain suffers from tonal flaws.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying the sonic preferences of preamp apologists be off the mark, I'm just proposing a technically and sonically more promising approach. Not least in the context of Chord electronics, especially DAVE & Co., with their exceptional accuracy. It would be a shame not to exhaust the most of it.

I am sorry but you are completely missing the point of all that we have been saying. It is not a matter of tone. There is instead a fundamental issue with taking the Dave and other DACs direct into some power amps. It is, if you don't mind me saying so, ridiculous for you to suggest that there are tonal flaws in the system and that that is what we are hearing as a 'problem'. It is NOT a matter of sonic preferences.

I also object to you assuming that I somehow prefer a rounder and more organic sound and that I am mistaking that for technical accuracy.

Sorry if I appear to be slightly hot under the collar. It is your slightly condescending assumptions that have done it.

My dealer is coming to my house next week as he wants to hear my system. I have agreed with him that it would be beneficial for him if I demonstrate what I have observed so he can feed it back to Chord.

 

[JaZZ]

I am sorry but you are completely missing the point of all that we have been saying. It is not a matter of tone. There is instead a fundamental issue with taking the Dave and other DACs direct into some power amps. It is, if you don't mind me saying so, ridiculous for you to suggest that there are tonal flaws in the system and that that is what we are hearing as a 'problem'. It is NOT a matter of sonic preferences.

I also object to you assuming that I somehow prefer a rounder and more organic sound and that I am mistaking that for technical accuracy.

Sorry if I appear to be slightly hot under the collar. It is your slightly condescending assumptions that have done it.

My dealer is coming to my house next week as he wants to hear my system. I have agreed with him that it would be beneficial for him if I demonstrate what I have observed so he can feed it back to Chord.

I'm not saying it is a matter of sonic preferences (maybe I wasn't clear enough), but feeding your upstream components directly may result in an unforgivingness that's not pleasing, not just to your ears – and it has nothing to do with clearly identifiable tonal imbalances.

Every system has its tonal flaws, believe me! I haven't seen a speaker measuring flat or with a uniform radiation characteristic, just as a hint. And you won't find technical arguments in favor of the added preamp.

 

[Triode User]

I'm not saying it is a matter of sonic preferences (maybe I wasn't clear enough), but feeding your upstream components directly may result in an unforgivingness that's not pleasing, not just to your ears – and it has nothing to do with clearly identifiable tonal imbalances.

Every system has its tonal flaws, believe me! I haven't seen a speaker measuring flat or with a uniform radiation characteristic, just as a hint. And you won't find technical arguments in favor of the added preamp.

I suspect you and I will not get to a point where we agree on this.

You again mention tonal flaws. This is not a matter of tone, flawed or not.

With Dave (and Mojo, Hugo and HugoTT) going direct into all the valve power amps I have tried the sound goes slightly muddy and indistinct. Not a lot. In fact some people might miss it.

With a pre amp in between everything snaps into focus. The Music First pre-amp I use is the nearest thing to the proverbial 'straight wire' that I have found. Most reviewers conclude that it has no impact on tone whatsoever.

There will be only one way to convince you and that is for you to try it . . . . . . . . . However your equipment list does not seem to feature speakers or valve power amps so I guess that is not to be.

"And you won't find technical arguments in favor of the added preamp." Well it just needs a little bit of looking into a bit deeper then.

I was really looking forward to not having several thousands of pounds worth of preamp in my system. Indeed, I first connected the Dave straight to my power amps and was listening like that for a while. It was only when I gradually began to think that the sound was really not quite as good as it ought to be that I started looking around to see what was wrong.

I think we need to agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.

 

[JaZZ]

I would be extremely surprised if your dealer or any other expert would come to the conclusion that your valve amp is incompatible with DAVE's low output impedance – which is known to be a precondition for the opposite of muddiness.

I have found the direct connection to often cause this sort of problems (perceived muddiness can also be the result of lacking tonal coherence and organicalness), and as mentioned they aren't clearly identifiable as tonal imbalances, although they are (or always were, in my case). It can absolutely also be too revealing for tonal problems of the source, which I exclude here.

 

[Triode User]

I would be extremely surprised if your dealer or any other expert would come to the conclusion that your valve amp is incompatible with DAVE's low output impedance – which is known to be a precondition for the opposite of muddiness.

I have found the direct connection to often cause this sort of problems (perceived muddiness can also be the result of lacking tonal coherence and organicalness), and as mentioned they aren't clearly identifiable as tonal imbalances, although they are (or always were, in my case). It can absolutely also be too revealing for tonal problems of the source, which I exclude here.

Haha, stand back and prepare to be surprised!!

You are coming at this from a 'theoretical' stand point and are therefore at a disadvantage not having heard the exact problem I am describing. I do not think the direct connection problems you have previously found are necessarily the same as what I am hearing.

My Chord dealer is visiting me next Friday. I will report back on what he thinks after that.

 

[Malcyg]

It probably depends a lot on the actual components and how well matched they are. I had a Chord DSX1000 which had an analogue volume control and I plugged that directly into my Chord SPM1200 MKII power amp. You'd think with both being Chord products, they would be well matched, but I could only operate the volume at the lower end of the range - bottom 30%. I tried attentuators, but that caused a loss in sound quality.

I was considering a preamp but then Dave came out and I went with that and it proved a much better match with the power amp and I see no need at all for a preamp now. The Dave is my preamp in effect. If that works with your own kit, then it is a bonus since it is one less item, one less shelf, fewer cables and less financial outlay and I'm in favour of all of those.

 

[JaZZ]

Haha, stand back and prepare to be surprised!!

You are coming at this from a 'theoretical' stand point and are therefore at a disadvantage not having heard the exact problem I am describing. I do not think the direct connection problems you have previously found are necessarily the same as what I am hearing.

My Chord dealer is visiting me next Friday. I will report back on what he thinks after that.

I'm not sure if your Chord dealer qualifies as an expert, in any event it would be hard to technically justify this kind of conclusion. BTW, you could test it yourself: solder some 2 kΩ resistors into your BNC cables. An easy fix and a cheap replacement for your preamp, should the low output impedance turn out to be the culprit (which I highly doubt).

However, I found a scenario where your «muddiness» could be caused by interferences – from the DAVE's outputs. An attenuator between it and the power amp would indeed attenuate them, while the music signal is set to maximum. You could ask Rob if that's possible – although I'm absolutely sure that he will exclude it, since the preamp function is an advertised feature, and given Chord's high standards plus Rob's high demands... I don't have a speaker system anymore (in fact I still have it, but it's not set up), but I have made the test with my electrostatic amp, once using its own volume regulator and once setting it to max, using the DAVE for attenuating the signal. Although I listened really carefully, I couldn't detect a difference between the two variants. The SRM-727II is a solid-state amp, though. My SRM-T1 would be a hybrid, with solid-state input section, so most likely wouldn't be any more significant in terms of tube compatibility (and sounds less transparent in the first place).

 

[Triode User]

I'm not sure if your Chord dealer qualifies as an expert, in any event it would be hard to technically justify this kind of conclusion.

However, I found a scenario where your «muddiness» could be caused by interferences – from the DAVE's outputs. An attenuator between it and the power amp would indeed attenuate them, while the music signal is set to maximum. You could ask Rob if that's possible – although I'm absolutely sure that he will exclude it, since the preamp function is an advertised feature, and given Chord's high standards plus Rob's high demands... I don't have a speaker system anymore, but I have made the test with my electrostatic amp, once using its own volume regulator and once setting it to max, using the DAVE for attenuating the signal. Although I listened really carefully, I couldn't detect a difference between the two variants. The SRM-727II is a solid-state amp, though. My SRM-T1 would be a hybrid, with solid-state input section, so most likely wouldn't be any more significant in terms of tube compatibility (and sounds less transparent in the first place).

This all stopping me getting on with my work but it is a good diversion!

I nearly responded earlier to your use of 'expert' in the context of our discussions but refrained.

I will try the option where my Music First is set to max volume, ie no attenuation (or gain), and the volume is then only controlled by the Dave volume. The Music First will only be providing transformer isolation between the Dave and the valve power amplifiers.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

I am sorry but you are completely missing the point of all that we have been saying. It is not a matter of tone. There is instead a fundamental issue with taking the Dave and other DACs direct into some power amps. It is, if you don't mind me saying so, ridiculous for you to suggest that there are tonal flaws in the system and that that is what we are hearing as a 'problem'. It is NOT a matter of sonic preferences.

I also object to you assuming that I somehow prefer a rounder and more organic sound and that I am mistaking that for technical accuracy.

Sorry if I appear to be slightly hot under the collar. It is your slightly condescending assumptions that have done it.

My dealer is coming to my house next week as he wants to hear my system. I have agreed with him that it would be beneficial for him if I demonstrate what I have observed so he can feed it back to Chord.

TU I think if you want to provide a more valid point of reference in defining what the Dave can and can't do compared to other components, I think you would benefit from greater isolation of your components. I am not looking to pick a fight or be disrespectful TU. (until I seriously investigated the benefits I hadn't realised how much it could change my assessment of components.) I have the Music First Baby Reference mk II (mine is wired more simply than the baulk standard unit for greater transparency) and I know what you refer to in MF's greater bass dynamic. MF products are superb but when the system if fully isolated you will realise you are losing something in the trade off by not using the Dave pre amp. You may still prefer to go the MF route for the balance of your system but something is lost in the process.

 

[Triode User]

TU I think if you want to provide a point of valid reference in defining what the Dave can and can't do compared to other components, I think you would benefit from greater isolation of your components. I am not looking to pick a fight or be disrespectful TU. (until I seriously investigated the benefits I hadn't realised how much it could change my assessment of components.) I have the Music First Baby Reference mk II (mine is wired more simply than the baulk standard unit for greater transparency) and I know what you refer to in MF's greater bass dynamic. MF products are superb but when fully isolated you will realise you are losing something in the trade off by not using the Dave pre amp. You may still prefer to go the MF route for the balance of your system but something is lost in the process.

Hi. I listened to the Classic Silver wound V2 and the Baby Reference mk II and found that the Baby Reference mk II with it's copper transformers was less transparent than the Classic Silver wound V2. I discussed this at length with Mr B at MFA and bought the Classic Silver wound V2 based on those discussions.

Can you clarify what you mean by "fully isolated" in your post?

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

TU I think if you want to provide a more valid point of reference in defining what the Dave can and can't do compared to other components, I think you would benefit from greater isolation of your components. I am not looking to pick a fight or be disrespectful TU. (until I seriously investigated the benefits I hadn't realised how much it could change my assessment of components.) I have the Music First Baby Reference mk II (mine is wired more simply than the baulk standard unit for greater transparency) and I know what you refer to in MF's greater bass dynamic. MF products are superb but when fully isolated you will realise you are losing something in the trade off by not using the Dave pre amp. You may still prefer to go the MF route for the balance of your system but something is lost in the process.

From the photos you recently posted I felt you could improve the isolation of components from vibrational interference. I won't suggest any products because I am not here to sell people's products. I am sure you are capable of making your own assessments of what's on offer. Vibration has a huge affect on transparency I have found over the years.

 

[stvc]

From the photos you recently posted I felt you could improve the isolation of components from vibrational interference. I won't suggest any products because I am not here to sell people's products. I am sure you are capable of making your own assessments of what's on offer. Vibration has a huge affect on transparency I have found over the years.

I was never trust those footer previously until i tried them recently..... real surprise especially when i add cable lifter to my speaker cable.

 

[dmance]

My friend's PSAudio Directstream DaC sounds great direct to amp...and PSAudio have an isolation transformer on the output (specifically mentioned in their literature to eliminate downstream feedback getting back to the DAC). I don't see one in the open-lid pics from Dave. Did Rob miss this in the interests of seeking full transparency? Just guessing here.