[Seamless Sounds]

I was about to buy a hybrid millett amp, but then my dad saw tubes on it and said it was old and "antique." He also said it was a DIY and more of a hobby thing and said no (well more like skepticism to the extreme). Because it was a DIY I had nothing to reference the price off of (he thinks I'll get ripped off). Because of his skepticism, I can tell he's trying real hard to persuade me to go cheap (the entire rig, not just the amp), but it hasn't worked on me yet lol.
 
Then he asked "why are you buying something that expensive when you can buy one for $50-$100?" There are headphone amps everywhere (think best buy, B&H Photo, J&R, and other general electronics store that sell so called headphone amps).
 
Now how should I go about arguing this case?

 

[Ypoknons]

Too bad you couldn't have dragged him to CanJam... more evidence there than you'd need

. He has a point about the hobbyist thing, but we kind of need to know the kind of system you want too...

 

[mckinetic]

The first thing you have to get him to understand is that better speakers or headphones WILL reproduce the signal more faithfully, meaning better music appreciation for you and if there is noise or clutter in the system less at the same time. Better to buy once for a lasting solution than having to change in six months, this is not just a more, eco friendly theory, it is also an economic one. Buy one step above what you think you will want for two years, this will provide some economic cushion for the possibility you want to change early, in other words, if buy crap, it will always be crap and worth very little, not so with the good stuff. I have Senn HD650's which three years after purchase are still going for almost 600 in places. Before an amp though depending on your setup, you should be looking at a very decent DAC. The Apogee Duet is a passable amp and a very, very good DAC all for 500.

 

[Seamless Sounds]

Oh I also should mention the Law of Diminishing Returns also apply heavily. He understands that better headphones and setup mean better improvement, however If the improvement is negligible then he'll refuse. ie. if an amp has made the AKG K701 reach its full potential, then there's no point in spending anymore than that.
 
My setup is Laptop, EMU 0404 USB (should be here this tuesday), headphone amp, and AKG K701.

 

[Dojomoto]

 You list "headphone amp" in your sig, but that's pretty vague. A little more info on your current amp would be useful.
I'm just starting in this hobby myself, and after about 4 months of researching this site most every day, I decided to get a used Senn, and got lucky with a CKKIII (a DIY amp) for $150 here on the FS forums. Thats pretty much the price for the parts alone and there are some premium parts in it as well. After winning the bid on the amp, I ordered a uDac to go with it as well, and the dac arrived a few days earlier. Going from a soundcard to the uDac was not really a great improvement. In fact, I had to play with the EQ for several days to get a sound I found acceptable to my ears.  I found my Onkyo surround receiver being fed a coax SPDIF signal from  my soundcard actually sounded pretty good and preferred it to my uDac's amp. The point I'm getting to is, once the CKKIII amp arrived, I hooked it up to the uDac as a DAC only, and everything sounded SO MUCH BETTER than anything *I* had ever experienced with stereo equipment! (I've never had great stereo equipment FYI).
 Just because an amp is a DIY, don't be fooled that it is inferior in any way, as some can sound as good as their more expensive commercial offerings, and some sound even better. Read up and find what offers a good match for your phones, and save or watch the FS forums / Ebay with a hawk's eye till you spot what you're desiring at a price you can afford and you should wind up making a wise purchase that you can be happy with, till the upgrade bug bites you!

 

[Seamless Sounds]

It's not a sig lol. I have nothing really, just a laptop and a $10 headphones. The Emu 0404 USB is on its way, and I'm in the process of buying the millett hybrid and K701 combo from someone, only to be stopped by my dad's skepticism (the amp that is).
 
1. I'll have to convince him that tubes isn't "antique" (I was at Canjam, and they sounded very good, but that alone he still isn't convinced) and that it sounds good. He also mentions that tubes will wear out and die, which is quite true.
2. I'll have to convince him again that DIY amps such as the Millett Hybrid can be a good way to go for the same quality for a lot less. He believes DIY, which he considers "no-name" brands, is something you should stay away from because you have no idea what's in it and what the real price is. Anyone can charge high for crappy components.
3. Then I have to convince him there's a difference between a really cheap amp ($50-$100) and a slightly more expensive one. This is the one he was looking at earlier http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Behringer+-+ULTRA-COMPACT+HEADPHONE+AMPLIFIER/8568016.p?id=1210981699352&skuId=8568016
4. Next I have to convince him that the K701 pairs well with the Millett Hybrid.
 
The amp in question is this http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/239093/sold-boutique-millett-hybrid-w-diamond-buffers-and-crossfeed but without the STEPS PSU and Crossfeed. This amp + K701 for $320. Is this a good deal?

 

[Ypoknons]

The problem is that the dimishing returns curve isn't a perfect parabolic curve, there aren't enough products and when it comes to powering big headphones there's a very steep gap between portable, battery powered and crappy stuff (e.g. an audio interface with a cheap opamp for the hp out; not all of them are bad though) and a good, powerful, clean home amp (with a few exceptions).

 

[plonter]

yes..tubes are more antique technology relatively to transistors,and less efficiennt because you have to switch them when they die and also need to take more care in general.    audiophiles appreciate tubes for their unique sound,same thing with vinyl.
i believe that a certain amount of money has got to be spent in order to get an appropriate amplification and a good sound because  first class electronic parts cost money (but there are exceptions ofcourse..).   I got my headroom ultra micro (discontinued) for 700$ and i never felt the need to upgrade my amp.   I believe that when you reach a certain level of performance from amps the noly thing that can change is the sound sig,  a 1000$ amp will sound different (or not) to a 600-700$ one but not necesseraly better!    high class electronic parts and good design is all you need to get a proper amplification.  and some 350- 500$ amps have this..so no need to spent too much.

 

[DrSpiv]

 
Quote:

 
...He believes DIY, which he considers "no-name" brands, is something you should stay away from because you have no idea what's in it and what the real price is. Anyone can charge high for crappy components.

Large companies make products for profit. They skimp on every component they think they can get away with, and then make sure their wholesale profit is ~100% of the cost, and then the reseller (JB, BH, etc) do about the same from there. Their only advantage is the reduced cost for buying parts in bulk at a manufacturing level. They have to do this to keep up with the overhead of having a large facility, lots of employees, and a mess of distribution channels and advertising.
 
DIYers, the no-namers, don't get the bulk deals like that. However they tend to build things for much, much less profit. They also get on these forums and others and see how people are modifying their stuff to get a better sound out of it, and correct. They care much more about quality than price because they have to. They are selling to hobbyists who know better.
 
You're getting some good cans. Don't waste them with a crappy amp that can't drive them properly.

 

[texwrx]

Why don't you find a DIY amp kit and then build it with your dad?  He seems interested in what you purchase and wants to save you some money.  You could find the kit you want and save money by building it yourself.

 

[Dojomoto]

 K701s new at Amazon are going for $290. For $320 you are getting the phones and a decent looking amp. It sounds like a good deal to me. The only thing I would recommend is to research here on Head-fi is to see what people who have used those phones with that amp have to say about how well they match together (their synergy so to speak). I'd make sure you don't have a headphone with accentuated highs that are matching to an amp with the same signature, as you'd wind up with a system that over emphasizes highs and sound terrible (I don't know what the sig of this amp or phones actually are, this was only an example).
 Good luck on your research and purchase!

 

[Seamless Sounds]

Quote:

Why don't you find a DIY amp kit and then build it with your dad?  He seems interested in what you purchase and wants to save you some money.  You could find the kit you want and save money by building it yourself.

Is there a DIY SS amp? A lot of them are either tubes or hybrids. My dad is an electric engineer so I guess he can build it.


 
Quote:

 K701s new at Amazon are going for $290. For $320 you are getting the phones and a decent looking amp. It sounds like a good deal to me. The only thing I would recommend is to research here on Head-fi is to see what people who have used those phones with that amp have to say about how well they match together (their synergy so to speak). I'd make sure you don't have a headphone with accentuated highs that are matching to an amp with the same signature, as you'd wind up with a system that over emphasizes highs and sound terrible (I don't know what the sig of this amp or phones actually are, this was only an example).
 Good luck on your research and purchase!

Yeah it is a good deal. I've tried googling and searching the forums of head-fi but a lot of them is the minimax or max. Positive reviews for those amps, but I don't know anything about the plain millett hybrid amp and K701. Nonetheless I want to buy it and audition them. If I don't like it I could always sell it and upgrade to a better amp.

 

[AmanGeorge]

The M^3 is a DIY SS design that adds a touch of warmth to sound and mates very nicely with the K701. If you feel like DIYing something or working with your dad on something, I'd give this a shot. Another option is the CKKIII, but I know less about this one and haven't heard it myself.
 
On the issue of tubes - they take a long time to burn out, and generally are pretty inexpensive to replace. They also have the added benefit of allowing you to tailor the sound of your amp a little bit, as different tubes tend to have different sonic flavors that you can experiment with.
 
In general, DIY implies better bang for buck, not worse. Point out these things to your dad:
-Commercial amplifiers generally get sold from manufacturers to distributors, then dealers, then consumers - each sale can cause the price to double, meaning that the final price of a commercial amp to a consumer is probably 6-8 times the cost of parts (this multiple is probably lower through something like Amazon, but still likely in the 4-5x range, if I had to guess)
-The cost to build commercial amplifiers is generally higher, as manufacturers have to spend a great deal of money on case-work and finishing that DIYers avoid by simply throwing their amps in generic cases to save time and effort
-Commercial manufacturers also have to build R&D costs into their prices, whereas DIYers simply build based on existing schematics
-Commercial manufacturers are out to make a profit on their products; a lot of DIYers build the amplifiers for themselves then end up selling them off when they upgrade, only looking to recoup costs
 
Unless your dad thinks that DIYers are fundamentally dishonest or likely to be so poor at building components that they fail regularly (neither of which, I think, is generally the case), there doesn't seem to me to be any way a reasonable person could think they would be getting the best value for their money (in terms of pure performance) by purchasing a commercial amplifier.

 

[texwrx]

 
Quote:

/img/forum/go_quote.gif

Is there a DIY SS amp? A lot of them are either tubes or hybrids. My dad is an electric engineer so I guess he can build it.


 

 
Other folks on this site can better help you decide on a specific SS amp build.
 
I have only been looking for a week into DIY amp builds although I remember watching my brother build a heathkit amp back in the 1960's.  Currently, I want to work my way up to a three or four board beta22 build.  First though, I will practice by building a tube amp.
 
You can find more information here at head-fi and also at: diyaudio and rockgrotto.

 

 

[Dojomoto]

 AMB has some PCB for sale to be used by DIYers ... just populate and add it to a case. http://www.amb.org/shop/ for the products page. Go here http://www.amb.org/audio/ and look under the header of "AMB projects" and click those links to find different projects you can build (with LOTS of support in Head-fi's DIY forums) and find a SS design you can persuade your father to help you build. I will go on record to state I do *love* my CKKIII and it is supposed to be an excellent value and easy to build amp. But I researched them before and knew they would pair well with my phones, so you'd have to do the same if you want to use 701s.