[Rdr. Seraphim]

Actually, I would only say that about some of the more high end amplification where cost is no object and rail variations are absolutely minimized (for a very good reason). There's a reason that some of the most highly regarded amplifiers are built like tanks, as much of the engineering goes into the power supply itself, yet the amp only produces 100w/ch and many times less. In equipment designed for a given price point, compromises are made as "good enough," but certainly not at the level that would allow one to say without equivocation, that an amp's power supply is a line conditioner. It's only a line conditioner in that it converts AC to DC with enough filtering to reliably do its job.  
 
If you're talking about "imaginary" as imaginary expressions e.g. in algebra, an expression that involves the impossible operation of like taking the square root of a negative number, I'd go for that

.  Let's not talk about the hypothetical though, or make the assumption that someone's experience isn't real. That only degrades the discussion. 

 

[JerryLove]

Quote:

Actually, I would only say that about some of the more high end amplification where cost is no object and rail variations are absolutely minimized (for a very good reason). 

 
Actually: I was referring to completely generic computer power supplies for one which I've personally measured... but the power-supply in an amplifier is in many ways similar. Moderate variations in input power simply don't show on the output rails. It is much of the same behavior your external power-conditioner is applying. 
 
I am aware of the existence of such measurements on some audio gear: but am less familiar with the specifics and have not actually performed the tests myself on such gear.
 
 
Quote:

There's a reason that some of the most highly regarded amplifiers are built like tanks, as much of the engineering goes into the power supply itself, yet the amp only produces 100w/ch and many times less.

Peavy has a new amp line that's getting high marks that ways 7lbs for 1600W. 
 
The Yamaha P-Series amps are very highly regarded at around 30 lbs.
 
A class A, B, or AB amp will, if built well, be heavy for several reasons. One is the needed mass for the heat sink (these are very power inefficient amps). Another is going to be the size/weight of the transformer (again, specific to class A/B). Finally: there tends to be signifigant capacitance to deal with sudden load changes.  
 
 
Quote:

 In equipment designed for a given price point, compromises are made as "good enough," but certainly not at the level that would allow one to say without equivocation, that an amp's power supply is a line conditioner. It's only a line conditioner in that it converts AC to DC with enough filtering to reliably do its job. 

My conclusions are based on measurements of output voltages on power-supplies as the input voltages varied. What is your conclusion that the output voltage does vary based on?
 
 
Quote:

If you're talking about "imaginary" as imaginary expressions e.g. in algebra, an expression that involves the impossible operation of like taking the square root of a negative number, I'd go for that 

.  Let's not talk about the hypothetical though, or make the assumption that someone's experience isn't real. That only degrades the discussion. 

Actually I was discussing the placebo effect and would appreciate if you would avoid obvious equivocation. I was discussing the tested conclusion that a memory for detail in audio fades in seconds. I was discussing remaining open to possibilities. You said that was what we should do. 
 
You want me to be open to your possibility; are you not open to mine?

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

We knew you were already going there, JerryLove. You might want to take your comments over to the Sound Science forum. They are more open minded to the placebo effect 

. Best... 
 

 

[JerryLove]

The existance of the placebo effect is disputed by someone? !?


I had believed what was in contention was whether your subjective experience was caused by placebo; not whether somethig so well established was real at all.

Where does that leave any discussion? I say "I have listened over lots of power cables and they all sound the same", you say something different and the person who aske the question flips a coin?

 

[dura]

The placebo effect certainly exists. However that does not mean everything I do not believe in can be attributed to it.

 

[BoyNamedSue]

According to these guys, placebo has little to no effect:
Hróbjartsson, A., & Gøtzsche, P.C. (2001). Is the placebo powerless? An analysis of clinical trials comparing placebo with no treatment. The New England Journal of Medicine, 344(21), 1594–1602. 

 

[JerryLove]

Quote:

The placebo effect certainly exists. However that does not mean everything I do not believe in can be attributed to it.

Of course not. Some things can be dismissed as not placebo (look: my leg is missing), and others that could be placebo (my headache seems better since taking that asprin) are, in fact, because they are really occurring.

In this case, regarding the difference (or lack thereof) between power cables: I asked if the other poster would agree the placebo effect was a possible cause.
 
Quote:

According to these guys, placebo has little to no effect:
Hróbjartsson, A., & Gøtzsche, P.C. (2001). Is the placebo powerless? An analysis of clinical trials comparing placebo with no treatment. The New England Journal of Medicine, 344(21), 1594–1602. 

 
Your analysis is lacking. If there is an appropriate form here feel free to start a thread and I'll discuss it with you. I won't argue the existence, or lack of existence, of suggestion on a thread about power cables. With people who agree that the placebo effect has effect, I will discuss if that might cause an apparent difference in undifferentiated sound when power cables are changed.

 

[BoyNamedSue]

Oh don't get me wrong, I think placebo exists. I referenced the article to your rhetorical question tongue in cheek. The cited study was pretty controversial when it came out, generating lively discussion/debate in medical science field on the existence of placebo. Anyhow, sorry for going OT, back to discussing the merits or lack thereof of power cables!

 

[Currawong]

Please, indeed if you wish to discuss something other than regarding the OP's question, start your own thread about it or use an existing one on the topic. 

 

[Bostonears]

 

The other odd thing is all the people experinced with live music running with normal power cables, normal interconnects, generic speaker wire, generic (built in) DAC's and making lifelike results. Why can't thy hear how crappy their music must sound given that it is missing all those things which make drastic improvements?

A lot of amplified live music does sound crappy when you actually listen to its sound quality (or lack thereof). I've heard far more ground loop hums and EMI interference in live performance systems than in home audio systems. To make your point, you'd be better off discussing the cables used in studio sound systems.
 

 

[Shike]

 
Quote:

Shike, do you mind sharing your impressions on the powervar with regard to sound quality difference? The 12amp version seems popular among audio folks, but I haven't read much on the lower amp powervar's. The reason I ask is because I just picked up a 4amp version on ebay for fairly cheap - not as good a deal as your's though! I am planning to connect my newcoming Audio-gd NFB-10 integrated DAC/AMP into it. Do you think the 4amp will be enough to power it? Thanks in advance.
 
Quote:

Quote:

whats a good cheap audiophile grade power cord to try? Thanks.

One that works?  A power cable isn't going to clean power or anything like that.  Get a cheap isolation transformer unit if you think you have dirty power problems and leave your worries in the past.  I got a PowerVar 6.0 from a thrift shop for $20.

 

It prevents my speakers and audio gear from popping when my fridge and ceiling fan turn on since my apartment is wired like crap.  That's about all I noticed, but then again I'm a cable skeptic.  At least it can be proven an isolation transformer does something . . . not to mention I don't get weird popping noises in the night
 
Now, if you're worried about voltage stability that's another issue.  There's some tripplites that I hear are good for voltage stability even at 80V brownouts for around $100 that I think would do well in such a situation.  Using both means you have rock steady filtered power that's proven - not subjective even, but empirically.

 

[BoyNamedSue]

Thanks for your impressions about the powervar. I have a similar problem where my speakers pop whenever I turn on/off my kitchen light, so hopefully the powervar will remedy it. Anyhow, I received the powervar4 last week and connected it to my Logitech z5500s to test it out and I immediately noticed an improvement - the sound is now more smooth and clean, the bass is no longer boomy, and cymbals have more clang to them. I honestly didn't have any expectation that SQ would improve when I first plugged them in - I just wanted to see if powervar worked since I bought them used. I was wondering if the improvement is consistent with what a isolation transformer is supposed to do, or is this just placebo on my part? One thing to note is that prior to connecting the z5500s to the powervar, I had them connected to a generic surge protector that was daisy chained to a Belkin surge protector, and both surge protectors' sockets were filled!

 

[Shike]

 
Quote:

Thanks for your impressions about the powervar. I have a similar problem where my speakers pop whenever I turn on/off my kitchen light, so hopefully the powervar will remedy it. Anyhow, I received the powervar4 last week and connected it to my Logitech z5500s to test it out and I immediately noticed an improvement - the sound is now more smooth and clean, the bass is no longer boomy, and cymbals have more clang to them. I honestly didn't have any expectation that SQ would improve when I first plugged them in - I just wanted to see if powervar worked since I bought them used. I was wondering if the improvement is consistent with what a isolation transformer is supposed to do, or is this just placebo on my part? One thing to note is that prior to connecting the z5500s to the powervar, I had them connected to a generic surge protector that was daisy chained to a Belkin surge protector, and both surge protectors' sockets were filled!

The PowerVar isn't doing anything measurable as far as sound reproduction is concerned.  If you go by the most likely scenario it's placebo, but there's others that will claim different.  It's also a very touchy subject in this sub-forum.

 

[BoyNamedSue]

I wonder if an alternate interpretation for the perceived change in sound could be that the powervar is preventing the dirty power from degrading the sound, as opposed to the iso-transformer actually improving the baseline sound quality of my z5500s or the null placebo hypothesis. I am curious though if it is placebo effect or not - I may do a comparison at some point when I have nothing better to do. Even if it turns out to be placebo, I guess paying $50 for placebo sound quality improvement isn't so bad when the primary purpose of the device was for power protection.

 

[JerryLove]

Quote:

A lot of amplified live music does sound crappy when you actually listen to its sound quality (or lack thereof). I've heard far more ground loop hums and EMI interference in live performance systems than in home audio systems. To make your point, you'd be better off discussing the cables used in studio sound systems.
 

You misunderstand me. I am not discussing live, amplified performance.
 
I am discussing, for example, me. I've heard Sheriff sing unplugged, I've sung in a chior, I've played in an orchestra (a high-school one admittedly). I've heard live orchestras, live drum circles, live bards singing round a camp fire, live unamplified stage performances, live my uncle on an acoustic guitar (my other uncle on both piano and trombone, and my cousin's band when unplugged). I've had a professional violinist play for me in my living room (she was cute too).
 
Why do you believe I, and people like myself, have failed to notice that (since we lack $1k power cables) all our gear sounds like crap? It's not like I haven't heard gear with such exotic cabling (two of my nearby hi-fi stores are advocates and use it).