Thanks. I see that you also have the Musician Taurus: How would you described the differences between both ?
Cen.Grand DSDAC 1.0 Deluxe - ending point in my search for a new reference
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geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
The Taurus is really good. Not nearly to the level of the deluxe but the best R2R DAC I’ve tested. It is a 32lb behemoth. It focuses largely on macro properties and has an enormous soundstage, great macro detail and wonderful R2R tone and timbre. It is pretty neutral and doesn’t have that overly smooth lower end R2R sound that is very alluring although missing out on detail and resolution. The Taurus doesn’t make everything sound good. It is great with really well recorded music, but suffers when the recording isn’t a min of 24/48. But, I’d say it is worth the money and a wonderful overall DAC. I love the way it sounds.
The Deluxe is totally different. Very good with all recordings, tons of note weight, incredible detail and resolution, but more than anything it just sounds right with everything. I could live with the Taurus, but prefer the Deluxe by a lot.
Thanks. From what I read, I just fear that the Cen.Grand does not have the PRaT I am looking for, and that the soundstage is big but not very precise….
Am I wrong ?
Am I wrong ?
TheMiddleSky
Headphoneus Supremus
About PRaT, in the end it's back to your preference and synergy with whole set up. Yes, something like Rockna Wavelight will deliver stronger attack notes, but doesn't mean Deluxe lack of PRaT. Cen Grand provide more details, soundstage, and imaging precision over Wavelight though.
geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
PRaT is absolutely off the charts on my system with the Deluxe. I haven't heard the Wavelight so I can't say. But I have the Musician Taurus here and PRaT with the Deluxe is better. The Taurus is a outstanding DAC with incredible tonal and timbre qualities with all of the things that make R2R DACs so alluring. The Macro properties are absolutely out of this world on the Taurus. But, the Deluxe is a better DAC by a significant margin to my ears. Attack, decay, hearing the front and back of the note; along with a realism to the sound of the instruments is as good as I've heard in a DAC with the Deluxe. I could live with the Taurus happily, but the Deluxe is better and I am glad to have it in my system. Its best strength is the incredible amount of saturation when mixed with top flight amps becomes extremely refined resolution with deep note weight and heft to the sound. Yet, it is light to the touch and balanced.
I love R2R DACs. I always have. But, the Deluxe just sounds better to my ears when I compare it to the Taurus. Which is by far the best R2R DAC I've had in my home. I know there are better R2R DACs, but the Taurus and the Super Clock are about as good as any sane person needs. They are just fantastic.
@geoffalter11 -
I have time-coherent Dunlavy speakers and an Audio GD R8HE DAC that I use in NOS.
In short, both can reproduce an impulse response with little or no ringing.
It wasn't until after modding power supplies to SMPS>DC-DC converter [including to the digital section of the AGD DAC] that my system transitioned to being able to reproduce holography in a hemisphere [180 degrees].
Playing back Led Zep's "Since I've been Loving You" most of the drums are out of phase appearing at almost bowling alley depth at zero degrees - to the listener's right.
A more balanced example is ZZ Top Blue Jean Blues where you get the full 180 degree soundstage and holography.
I checked the out of phase tracks from the Rives Audio Test CD and everything appears as it should within the 180 degree sound field.
I don't know whether it's the ability of the system to reproduce an impulse with little or no ringing or whether it even matters.
The holography or soundstaging doesn't change when I option to 8X OS on the DAC but since I haven't seen any reputable measurements on the Audio GD R8HE DAC I don't know if the OS filter adds ringing to the impulse response at all. Any thoughts as to the degree the Cen.Grande will portray holography?
Thank you for your contributions to this thread.
Rich
I have time-coherent Dunlavy speakers and an Audio GD R8HE DAC that I use in NOS.
In short, both can reproduce an impulse response with little or no ringing.
It wasn't until after modding power supplies to SMPS>DC-DC converter [including to the digital section of the AGD DAC] that my system transitioned to being able to reproduce holography in a hemisphere [180 degrees].
Playing back Led Zep's "Since I've been Loving You" most of the drums are out of phase appearing at almost bowling alley depth at zero degrees - to the listener's right.
A more balanced example is ZZ Top Blue Jean Blues where you get the full 180 degree soundstage and holography.
I checked the out of phase tracks from the Rives Audio Test CD and everything appears as it should within the 180 degree sound field.
I don't know whether it's the ability of the system to reproduce an impulse with little or no ringing or whether it even matters.
The holography or soundstaging doesn't change when I option to 8X OS on the DAC but since I haven't seen any reputable measurements on the Audio GD R8HE DAC I don't know if the OS filter adds ringing to the impulse response at all. Any thoughts as to the degree the Cen.Grande will portray holography?
Thank you for your contributions to this thread.
Rich
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phoneslave86
100+ Head-Fier
There is a likely increase in prat with i2s fed by a really good clock or just attaching a clock to the add on module.
Will try it myself sometime in the next year.
On mid grade DACs good clock is a game changer, I assume this DAC won’t benefit as much but diminishing returns are worth it to quite a few at this level as well
Really good clocks aren’t easy to make or cheap but many good DACs are designed to benefit it looks like this one is too with the 10mhz on the module unless I’m mistaken
Will try it myself sometime in the next year.
On mid grade DACs good clock is a game changer, I assume this DAC won’t benefit as much but diminishing returns are worth it to quite a few at this level as well
Really good clocks aren’t easy to make or cheap but many good DACs are designed to benefit it looks like this one is too with the 10mhz on the module unless I’m mistaken
It do sometimes feel a bit too smooth on some songs, probably oversmooth if you listen to a lot of rock/metal songs. You need careful pairing with your amp/headphone to make it doesn't sound oversmooth
Soundstage however, no complain at all
geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
Hi Rich,
Thanks for such a thoughtful post. The Audio GD R8HE is fantastic DAC. I actually asked Kingwa which DAC he'd get and he said that he would buy his top DACs in this order...
1. R7HE
2. R8HE - he said that this was without question the best price to performance product he's ever created.
3. R7
As for ringing, I am not sure I have much to say on that, but can tell you that having heard the R8HE it possesses that R2R Holography that is so much an R2R thing and incredibly alluring. What I hear you explaining in the case of Led Zep and ZZ Top is perfect image specificity where you are getting the instruments in their exact place on stage and the R8HE is reproducing exactly what they sound like in that space. This is one of the single biggest things I look for in a DAC. Can I hear a band and the instruments in their exact place with enough space between them to allow for the music to flow properly and present that liquidity that makes for a great DAC?
Right now I am listening to a Phish show and I can hear all 4 instruments in their exact placement. Guitar coming straight out of the front of my head, bass coming out of the right channel, piano/keys out of the left channel and drums sitting right behind the guitar player coming out of the back of my heard. And they all have enough space where there is that 180 degree soundstage and a holographic image.
To answer your question, I find R2R DACs to be especially good at reproducing holographic timbre and the ability for music to come at you from all angles. The Taurus is excellent in this way and the center image expands to all 4 corners.
As far as the the Cen.Grand Deluxe, it also possesses wonderful holographic space and wonderful image specificity. I can hear the center image expand spatially, and all parts of my music come from all 4 angles into the center where the midrange opens up like a springtime tulip. I can't say whether it is better at this than an R2R DAC. The best DACs regardless of topology all have the ability to reproduce music properly with the right pacing; while possessing an acu
As for ringing, I don't think it matters. The only thing that matters to me is that the sounds are coming out of a quiet space so that all low level detail and resolution can be heard. The vast majority of R2R and DSD DACS do not measure well. But, the areas where they don't measure well are outside of the human brain to hear and so it makes no difference to me. All I care about is that the sound is great. And it sounds like that you have achieved.
Cheers,
Geoff
Thanks for your detailed and insightful response Geoff.
I asked Kingwa about the R8 measurements that appeared on ASR...
In particular, the 8X OS filter barely reducing the aliasing frequencies and the ~80dB linearity measurement.
He did not contest the measurements and his response to the poor filter measurement was that as a violinist growing up, he knows what a violin is supposed to sound like and tuned it as such.
And, regarding the linearity, he compared the measurement to being equivalent to what you'd get from the best phono setups.
John Atkinson from Stereophile has often commented that, "It's not clear whether the [DAC] sounded as good as it did because of the [poor] measurements or in spite of them"...
I for one, motivated by a hunch often consider myself "dancing in the dark" in terms of why certain mods do what they do...
Do you know what is the fuse value on the De Luxe ? I think it is 6.3A T, but not sure....
geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
I think there is wisdom to what Kingwa says. The Deluxe supposedly measures terribly. Yet it is all outside of what the human ear can register and every instrument sounds exactly as it should and the DAC is dead quiet. It sounds perfect to my ears. I think ASR is for a certain subset of the hobby looking for the best measurements possible. I read on there that the quest for making a DAC was figured out a long time ago and needs only a DS chip of high quality and the best sinad and thd numbers. There was more said, I am paraphrasing. But you get my point.
The reality is that a DSD or R2R will never measure like a Chinese DS based DAC in the race for the very best measurements. You just can’t measure the things I believe matter the most to sound.
Personally, I have heard many of those DACs. They sound Uber clear but lifeless and boring. I prefer to let my ears guide me and match my components accordingly.
Thank you for the compliments and for such an insightful post.
The last 3 years Ontech Dac07, Gustard R26, Gustard A26, Gustard X22, Weiss dac204 and the Cen.Grands superclock and deluxe has been playing here at home. The CG.deluxe is by far the best overall, because the sound quality didn't stop at a certain level. The other dacs seemed to reach their level of performance and STAY there, while the CG deluxe became even better when the input signal was better. In other words the CG kept showing it's potential, and today - after one year of use - i'm still not sure it has shown it's full potential.
If the music is well recorded and well produced, you will be surprised how much sound quality will increase. Other dacs didn't get so much better.
I'm still surprised of the overall level of performance.
Not native US so sorry if this is hard to understand.
If the music is well recorded and well produced, you will be surprised how much sound quality will increase. Other dacs didn't get so much better.
I'm still surprised of the overall level of performance.
Not native US so sorry if this is hard to understand.
Aibek
Head-Fier
I bought the CEN.grand DSDAC1.0 Deluxe in June last year (06.2023). During this time, I had the following DACs at the same time as the Deluxe: Rockna Wavedream Signature SE, Metronome c|AQWO and Lampizator Poseidon. The Deluxe looked decent against these wonderful devices. It is my final DAC.
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