[PopZeus]

Are R-2R DACs becoming more attractive to hifi makers because DAC chips have become more scarce or is this strictly because it provides the best sound quality? It just seems like a trend that all of a sudden started appearing in places where R-2R had not been before.

 

[Victory112]

Are R-2R DACs becoming more attractive to hifi makers because DAC chips have become more scarce or is this strictly because it provides the best sound quality? It just seems like a trend that all of a sudden started appearing in places where R-2R had not been before.

That's an interesting question. The R2R BlueMini is the only other cheap example that comes to mind. What else have you noticed?

 

[Stuff Jones]

Awesome. @Andykong - Any plans for Cayin combine R2R + tubes in a DAP or portable DAC+amp and at a reasonably affordable price range (<1k)?

 

[ClieOS]

Are R-2R DACs becoming more attractive to hifi makers because DAC chips have become more scarce or is this strictly because it provides the best sound quality? It just seems like a trend that all of a sudden started appearing in places where R-2R had not been before.

Nah, R2R has always being 'special' in the HiFi market with a few dedicated manufacturers trying to achieve a certain sound signature that is opposite to that of Delta-Sigma. This has became more and more obvious as PCM1702/1704 (which many considered to be the pinnacle of integrated R2R audio chip) becomes harder and harder to come by. The usual problem is really the size, matching precision and cost of making a (non-integrated ) R2R that can be used in a portable setting - that's until recently years where we finally started to see viable miniatured R2R design.

 

[PopZeus]

That's an interesting question. The R2R BlueMini is the only other cheap example that comes to mind. What else have you noticed?

Oh Just the BlueMini and the Cayin devices. It wasn't a very scientific theory haha.

Nah, R2R has always being 'special' in the HiFi market with a few dedicated manufacturers trying to achieve a certain sound signature that is opposite to that of Delta-Sigma. This has became more and more obvious as PCM1702/1704 (which many considered to be the pinnacle of integrated R2R audio chip) becomes harder and harder to come by. The usual problem is really the size, matching precision and cost of making a (non-integrated ) R2R that can be used in a portable setting - that's until recently years where we finally started to see viable miniatured R2R design.

Yeah, I guess the real innovation is manufacturing tolerances have gotten precise enough to produce these types of DACs at scale.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Are R-2R DACs becoming more attractive to hifi makers because DAC chips have become more scarce or is this strictly because it provides the best sound quality? It just seems like a trend that all of a sudden started appearing in places where R-2R had not been before.

There are plenty of Sabre chips, it's the sound quality.

 

[Stuff Jones]

There are plenty of Sabre chips, it's the sound quality.

The SQ was always a factor -- why now? I bet AKMs issues are rising the prices for other chips including Sabre, which makes R2R R&D more competitive.

 

[ClieOS]

The SQ was always a factor -- why now? I bet AKMs issues are rising the prices for other chips including Sabre, which makes R2R R&D more competitive.

Almost all the recently appeared R2R implementation on portable devices started R&D a few years ago, well before AKM's fire or the global chip shortage happened. While no doubt those are factors pushing a quicker release, I think the true reason is manufacturers are simply trying to differentiate themselves out with something that is hard to copy. The fact is, regardless how many or how high end the ESS or AKM chips you use, other can just copy the basic circuit and out-design you. An R2R on the other hand is definitely not something that can be easily copied. Like the old saying - if it is easy, everyone will be doing it. The opposite is just as true.

 

[magicguy]

Yeah, maybe a case w/battery like some phone's have.

Great idea !
But the size has to be contained, so that you don't walk around with a wheelbarrow...

 

[deafdoorknob]

@Andykong please make it play nice with ios devices and their limited power

 

[DanielListening]

Only if they get their power use under control. I am actualy here on Head-fi because I was destroying my phone batteries prematurely. Time for a dedicated device, I thought. Happy I did, but 2-3 charge cycles for a new phone in a day using a dongle vs. 1 charge every 3 days when not using is a huge difference.

Just get AppleCare.

I am really excited for this device.

 

[blotmouse]

Just get AppleCare.

I am really excited for this device.

They have excessiveness clauses.
I am excited too, but this is the time to make up a list of unattainable options and complain the new product does not include them, c’mon.

 

[Andykong]

Super interested in this... I'm looking at the HIP DAC v2 as a nice option to for chilling on my outside balcony and listening, and was just yesterday thinking "is there an R2R portable DAC/amp out there..?"

Curious how it'll do with difficult-to-drive cans.

The question to be answered is about power consumption.

What is the power consumption of this dongle?

Only if they get their power use under control. I am actualy here on Head-fi because I was destroying my phone batteries prematurely. Time for a dedicated device, I thought. Happy I did, but 2-3 charge cycles for a new phone in a day using a dongle vs. 1 charge every 3 days when not using is a huge difference.

@Andykong please make it play nice with ios devices and their limited power

@Ichos has pointed out the most important issue.

Don't expect the USB dongle will be powerful enough to handle difficult-to-drive cans. Not that we can't do that, our C9 is one of the most powerful "portable" headphone amplifier in the market, and even our earliest C5 was consider the power house in the market. if there is only a handful of companies can deliver compact portable amplifier, Cayin has proven to be one of them. The point is, the mobile phone industry has placed an unbreakable limitation to limited the power we can drain from the USB-C port. Some latest observation suggested that the limitation is as low as 100mA, and the mobile phone company can even lower the limit further with a simple firmware update.

For your information, the Type A USB port in your notebook computer can support 500mA for USB 2.0 and 900mA for USB 3.0 respectively. When Cayin facilitate OTG storage from the DAP's USB-C port, we set the limit to 300mA, so we can support most card readers or a low-powered SSD (M.2 become feasible), but you cannot mount a standard SSD to the DAP as it will draw more then 300mA current from the USB port. The DAP probably will recognise the SSD, but as soon as the device start to transfer data, the connection failed. So 100mA power supply ceiling probably will limit the accessories or storage device that you can use with your mobile phone.

By the way, if I can attached storage to my mobile phone freely, i probably won't need a mobile phone with 512GB or 1TB internal storage, right?

I don't think the mobile industry are trying to stop HiFi USB dongle from connecting to the mobile phone, we are too small to become a concern, we probably are just collateral damage.

@deafdoorknob let me describe a scenario and you can probably figure out the situation. R-2R DAC is also about precision and it is very sensitive to the accuracy of input bitstream. If we turn down the "volume" of the mobile phone to certain level, the date integrity will be affected, and will in turn affect the precision of the conversion in R-2R algorithm.

This is most unfortunate.

 

[Andykong]

that's a fair point, but maybe a self charging dong will come eventually, who knows. hell it could be a dongle with an extra battery feature for all we know, with a toggle to just charge the phone instead of being a dac/amp

Yeah, maybe a case w/battery like some phone's have.

Whatever happened to that battery material they could spray on the insides of electronics and then they work more like a car and alternator never requiring an actual charge unless they drop too low? Gotta check my MIT feeds, lol.

Wait, are we talking about Chord Mojo? or how to miniature the Mojo?

 

[Andykong]

Awesome. @Andykong - Any plans for Cayin combine R2R + tubes in a DAP or portable DAC+amp and at a reasonably affordable price range (<1k)?

Sorry, can't discuss future product.

But there is something you should be aware of. The electronics supply chain is being hammered on all sides – from materials to logistics. There has been an increase in component prices (including transistors and capacitors) of up to 40% as compared to last quarter (HERE), and selected components price even raised 100% since the outbreak. Logistic side is even worse, freights cancelled, shipping delays, and logistic cost increased exponentially. The container freight index has increased from $2112 (11 Sept 2020) to $11,109 (12 Sept 2021) , more then 500% increased. We are struggling to continue production without increase the product retail price.

So unless someone somehow can bring the components and logistic market back to the pre-COVID benchmark, consumer electronics price will increase instead of decrease (or enhanced performance at the same price).