Cayin N3Ultra: an Entry-level Portable DAP that Delivers a Complete Vacuum Tube Audio Experience
Mar 8, 2024 at 7:37 PM Post #61 of 659
Thanks Andy for the transparency. The N3Pro is a special DAP, whenever I find a pair of IEM being too clinical/cold/plain, I hook them up to the N3Pro, and I hear euphoric sound. Hope the N3Ultra keeps this strength.

I agree with Twister6, just treat it like a big dongle with battery.
 
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Mar 8, 2024 at 10:10 PM Post #62 of 659
This is a very interesting thread because in May 2024, Astell & Kern is to present the flagship version of the DAP SP3000T (~$1500)
based on 2 pcs of the same RAYTHEON JAN6418 tubes.
From the @[B]Andykong[/B] description of Cayin N3Ultra , it is clear how difficult it is to use this type of lamps in DAP.
At the same time, we remember that the previous A&K2000T model had problems with noise when using WiFi at 5GHz.

I wonder which of these two devices will be better able to use these lamps at such different prices.

SP3000T was announced a week ago, and it will be priced $3k, not $1.5k. The only thing in common between these two are the same tubes :)
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 11:36 PM Post #63 of 659
I'm a bit confused about N3U streaming discussion :) Cayin already makes a bunch of streaming DAPs. N3 Pro was their entry level playback only DAP without streaming but allowing a wired or BT/wireless connection to your streaming source. N3 Ultra gets rid of BT/wireless connection due to interference with these particular tubes, keeping only wired connection. So, you can think of N3U as a wired dual-tube dongle to use with your smartphone or tablet or laptop. Plus, it has a battery, so you don't have to drain your smartphone. And as a bonus, you can load your own files for a local playback. Nothing more or less :)
I want a free lunch and an N8ii packaged as a dongle. Heck, why not an N7 built into my phone without the dongle at no additional cost? :wink:

I am thrilled to read about the N3U release. I'll probably buy one and use it with my laptop and/or phone. I'm streaming from my laptop to my DAP --> C9 as I type this. I must be part of the target market.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 2:52 AM Post #64 of 659
Hello,
I have been waiting a long time for an N3 update.
I thought the player was a good basic product.
What made me hesitate was that it could only be used via Bluetooth or cable connection.
When I read that a new N3 was coming I hoped for Wifi and now I read that it doesn't work after all.
Very very sad, I thought the N8 was magical when I tested it but for what I use it was a bit much money to justify it.

I'll be honest I really want the wifi thing but if it is cancelled I will have to consider the Woo Audio dongle if I stay on cable.
Otherwise keep waiting for the magic dap to justify the cost.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 5:58 AM Post #65 of 659
Hello,
I have been waiting a long time for an N3 update.
I thought the player was a good basic product.
What made me hesitate was that it could only be used via Bluetooth or cable connection.
When I read that a new N3 was coming I hoped for Wifi and now I read that it doesn't work after all.
Very very sad, I thought the N8 was magical when I tested it but for what I use it was a bit much money to justify it.

I'll be honest I really want the wifi thing but if it is cancelled I will have to consider the Woo Audio dongle if I stay on cable.
Otherwise keep waiting for the magic dap to justify the cost.
There are no pink ponies: a tube amplifier/buffer and Wi-Fi/Bluetooth are incompatible due to the physics laws.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 6:09 AM Post #66 of 659
I am working on the video script of other new products right now, so please pardon me for not responding to the questions and suggestions specifically. I noticed a lot of debate/discussion regarding our choice of System solution, most, if not all, questions were thoroughly discussed in our office before we finalized our choice of technology for N3Ultra. When we announced the N3Pro back in 2020, we received very similar complaints saying Cayin was inconsiderate, ignorant, or even stupid to launch a DAP that can't stream in 2020, so we do expect similar opinions will revisit when we announce another Puritan DAP four years later.

The biggest reason for the 4-year idle time between N3Pro and N3Ultra was the patient waiting for another suitable CPU that offered a considerable performance advantage over the Ingenic X1000 used in N3Pro. We have tried the X2000 but it didn't cut in, we go for the current solution when we can't wait any longer. Have we considered the option to stick with Linux based solution with Snapdragon CUP? Nope, we didn't, because this is not feasible practically. Without the backing of an appropriate solution provider, we aren't going anywhere, Snapdragon won't even talk to us if we want to use their CPU to develop a Linux-based DAP, but without a solution team in-house or outsourced.

Not all Android-based DAPs are the same, some Android customizations are better than others, and not all Linux-based DAPs are superior. Cayin has determined to slim down and optimize the Android implementation in N3Ultra, we have removed all Wireless connectivity, given up third-party application support completely to eliminate chaotic back-end tasks that will consume resources, and minimize the problems incurred from multi-tasking and memory leaking, etc etc. Those are heart-breaking slim down to Sales and Marketing. Trust me, the sales team wanted to keep WiFi and Bluetooth because this will make life a lot easier for them. The Management defined the core competence of N3Ultra and they want to make sure the N3Ultra will offer satisfactory user experience on the core features, so they made the tough decision during the earlier stage in R&D.

We can't please everyone no matter how hard we try, and projects such as N3Ultra are full of compromise, so if the product doesn't meet your needs or requirements, we hope we can cross paths again in the next product. Now that the circuitries and PCBs have been finalized, this is the critical moment for software development. We are working very hard to optimize the firmware before the official launch (mid-April). We hope the market will give N3Ultr a fair chance, give it a try before we condemn the solution.

Image_20240302082751.jpg
 
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Mar 9, 2024 at 10:38 AM Post #67 of 659
Oh, heck, I'd have been happy if it had been stripped down even more. I could have lived without balanced altogether and been fine with a dedicated 3.5mm, analog-only line out to an external amp in order to drive my full-sized headphones and power-hungry earbuds. Especially so too if it knocked off a substantial amount of the purchase price.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 10:42 AM Post #68 of 659
I am working on the video script of other new products right now, so please pardon me for not responding to the questions and suggestions specifically. I noticed a lot of debate/discussion regarding our choice of System solution, most, if not all, questions were thoroughly discussed in our office before we finalized our choice of technology for N3Ultra. When we announced the N3Pro back in 2020, we received very similar complaints saying Cayin was inconsiderate, ignorant, or even stupid to launch a DAP that can't stream in 2020, so we do expect similar opinions will revisit when we announce another Puritan DAP four years later.

The biggest reason for the 4-year idle time between N3Pro and N3Ultra was the patient waiting for another suitable CPU that offered a considerable performance advantage over the Ingenic X1000 used in N3Pro. We have tried the X2000 but it didn't cut in, we go for the current solution when we can't wait any longer. Have we considered the option to stick with Linux based solution with Snapdragon CUP? Nope, we didn't, because this is not feasible practically. Without the backing of an appropriate solution provider, we aren't going anywhere, Snapdragon won't even talk to us if we want to use their CPU to develop a Linux-based DAP, but without a solution team in-house or outsourced.

Not all Android-based DAPs are the same, some Android customizations are better than others, and not all Linux-based DAPs are superior. Cayin has determined to slim down and optimize the Android implementation in N3Ultra, we have removed all Wireless connectivity, given up third-party application support completely to eliminate chaotic back-end tasks that will consume resources, and minimize the problems incurred from multi-tasking and memory leaking, etc etc. Those are heart-breaking slim down to Sales and Marketing. Trust me, the sales team wanted to keep WiFi and Bluetooth because this will make life a lot easier for them. The Management defined the core competence of N3Ultra and they want to make sure the N3Ultra will offer satisfactory user experience on the core features, so they made the tough decision during the earlier stage in R&D.

We can't please everyone no matter how hard we try, and projects such as N3Ultra are full of compromise, so if the product doesn't meet your needs or requirements, we hope we can cross paths again in the next product. Now that the circuitries and PCBs have been finalized, this is the critical moment for software development. We are working very hard to optimize the firmware before the official launch (mid-April). We hope the market will give N3Ultr a fair chance, give it a try before we condemn the solution.

Bild_20240302082751.jpg
Hello,
Thank you for the detailed feedback.
I have two questions.

Could you find out the reason why there is so much interference with the Wifi and Bluetooth on the N3?
If so, are there any ways to fix this?

I assume that the N8 works flawlessly because it has been fully trimmed to SS and therefore has less to no problems with it, right?
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 10:45 AM Post #69 of 659
Hello,
Thank you for the detailed feedback.
I have two questions.

Could you find out the reason why there is so much interference with the Wifi and Bluetooth on the N3?
If so, are there any ways to fix this?

I assume that the N8 works flawlessly because it has been fully trimmed to SS and therefore has less to no problems with it, right?
The N8 works flawlessly because it uses Nutubes instead of RAYTHEON JAN6418.

At least that has been my understanding
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 12:09 PM Post #70 of 659
So, you can think of N3U as a wired dual-tube dongle to use with your smartphone or tablet or laptop. Plus, it has a battery, so you don't have to drain your smartphone. And as a bonus, you can load your own files for a local playback. Nothing more or less :)
Makes sense and then it becomes a larger competitor to the Woo Audio Tube Mini with more features and a similar price point.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 3:52 PM Post #71 of 659
Image_20240302082814.jpg

The MSRP of N3Ultra is US$529

Cayin will debut a new DAP at CanJam New York 2024. The N3Ultra is a long overdue update to the beloved N3Pro we launched all the way back in July 2020. The N3Pro surprised the Personal Audio community when we migrated the key technology of the N8 flagship DAP to our entry-level DAP within a year. Now we are doing this again, the N3Ultra is the second portable product in the Cayin lineup embracing the Gen3 Vacuum Tube Audio Circuit. With the choice of two tube timbers, and when the tube timbers are available to all analog outputs including but not limited to line out, the useability of the vacuum tube installation is expanded to a different horizon.

The N3Ultra used a pair of vintage NOS Raytheon JAN6418 in the tube timbre circuit. I have written some explanations about this military-grade miniature pentode vacuum in the N3Pro thread, if you are unfamiliar with miniature vacuum tube applications in the HiFi industry, you can check out our previous discussion HERE and HERE. Unlike the N3Pro, the JAN6418 tube timbre is now applicable to all FOUR analog outputs, namely the 3.5mm single-ended phone out, 4.4mm balanced phone out, 3.5mm single-ended line out, and 4.4mm balanced line out.

We have sent 3 sets of N3Ultra engineering samples to MusicTeck, If you are attending CanJam New York, please make sure you drop by MusicTeck's booth at B5-B8 to check out the N3Ultra DAP. The N3Ultra will be available by early April 2024, and we shall announce the retail price and provide full specifications and technical details of the new DAP by the end of March. I'll try my best to collect some preliminary information by next Thursday, so please subscribe and stay tuned.

Update before CanJam New York 2024.

Gen3 Vacuum Tube Circuit


This is our second DAP using JAN6418. The N3Pro was our first attempt and we have spent a lot of effort to install a pair of JAN6418 into a relatively compact DAP chassis. Unfortunately, we need to accept the following two limitations at the 2020 implementation:
  • JAN6418 is a Subminiature Pentode tube; we need a pair for the stereo circuit, a set of 4 for the balanced circuit. Since we can only install a pair of JAN6418 in N3Pro, the tube timber circuit can only facilitate single-ended phone out, the balanced phone out is solid-state only.
  • While we have passed down the Suspension installation technique from N8 to N3Pro, the filament of JAN6418 is a lot more sensitive to vibration when compared to the LED filament in Nutube, so the N3Pro is optimized for some scenarios but still suffers from ringing in other scenarios such as knocking on DAP, holding the DAP and then place it on a table or knocking on the table when DAP is placed on it.
With 4 years of portable vacuum tube R&D in our arms (since N3Pro) and the Gen3 Vacuum tube circuit after N30LE, we have improved the JAN6418 implementation by

1. Anti-shock Anti-vibration Installation

A newly designed custom-built shock absorption silicon housing that enables vertical suspended mounting. We incur this design from N8ii and provided significantly improved shock and vibration absorption. You can now shake it, tab on it, and even run around with it, the ringing effect is very minimal even with sensitive IEM. Make sure you try this in CanJam New York if you have the opportunity.

The 2024 version JAN6418 installation involved a custom-designed CNC-machined center frame, revised shock absorption silicone housings that provided better protection to each JAN6418 independently, and a “screwless” vertical-mounted installation.

N3Ultra Tube installation.jpg

N3Ultra Center Frame.jpg

N3Ultra Silicon Housing.jpg

2. Balanced phone output with two JAN6418

How can this be done? This is technically impossible, so we cheated. The DAC circuit and headphone amplification circuit of N3Ultra are fully differentiated but the timbre circuit, since we are using a pair of JAN6418 only, is singled-ended. We need to perform Balanced to Single-end before the timbre circuit, and Single-ended to Balanced after the timbre circuit. While N3Ultra is not a fully differentiated design from source to output, we have included some serious engineering to handle the correction properly. We are so confident that we even explain the constraint in advance.

Can we install four JAN6418 into N3Ultra to achieve a genuine fully-balanced design? This will involve more space and we can easily achieve that by increasing the width of N3Pro by 10mm. Unfortunately, using a quad-set of JAN6418 will consume more power, shorten the duration, generate more heat, and increase background noise, those are the real problems that stop us from using four JAN6418 in U3Ultra.

3. JAN6418 as Voltage Amplifier

The N3Pro employs JAN6418 as a buffer in its timbre circuit, it offers beautiful tube sonic characteristics to single-ended phone output. The Gen3 Vacuum Tube Circuit delivers a fuller tube sound to both single-ended and balanced phone out and lines out of the DAP, and we need a stronger output from the timbre circuit to achieve this goal, the JAN6418 is not connected as a low gain voltage amplifier in N3Ultra and we added a FET buffer immediately after the JAN6418 to enhance the output. Last but not least, since JAN6418 is a Pentode tube, we can connect it in triode and ultra-linear modes and use them as Classic and Modern tube timbre respectively. If you have heard the dual tube timbre of N30LE, you’ll be amazed that this is a simple circuit design that can achieve a similar dual timbre effect cost-effectively.

DAC circuit

The N3Ultra uses two pieces of AK4493S from AKM as DAC. A powerful FPGA has enabled the DAC can decode up to 32bit 768kHz in PCM, and 22.5792MHz (DSD512) in DSD.

Parametric EQ

This is a feature that has been on our To-Do List for several years. Yes, we heard you, and late is better than never.

We are still working on the PMEQ UI so the final control might be slightly different from the screen photo I showed below. You can add up to FIVE bands in the PMEQ section, each band is equivalent to a digital filter that enables you to shape the sound output of the DAP. To properly specify the characteristic of each band (filter), you need to specific

  • Frequency: the center frequency that you want to apply the adjustment in each band (filter)
  • Q: the ratio of center frequency to bandwidth, and when you fix the center frequency, then bandwidth is inversely proportional to Q, meaning that as you raise the Q, you narrow the bandwidth.
  • Gain: control the aptitude (boost or cut) for the center frequency specified in each band (filter)
  • Type: Choice of three types: Low Shelf, Peaking, and High Shelf
  • Enable or Disable a particular band, this will allow you to hear the difference of one particular band (with or without) specifically.
The Low shelf is typically the left-most (bass) frequency that you want to adjust, and the High shelf is the right-most (treble) frequency that you want to achieve, and the remaining bands should defined as peak type. The low-shelf filters and high-shelf filters act like a Low pass filter (LPF) and a high pass filter (HPF) respectively, but shelf filters can be used for boosting and cuts in the gain setting, while the pass filters can only be used for cuts.

As you set up the bands, the implication of each set will be stimulated in the FR graph above the band controls. This will help you to visualize the effect of your PMEQ settings.

N3Ultra Main Menu.jpg

N3Ultra PMEQ 01.jpg

N3Ultra PMEQ Menu.jpg

System Configuration

The N3Ultra is powered by a Snapdragon CPU and operated under Android 8.1. While the system hardware is capable of running common music-related applications, the JAN6418 vacuum tube is extremely sensitive to wireless interference. We can’t quantify the difference between JAN6418 and, for example, the KORG Nutube 6P1 scientifically, but saying the JAN6418 is 10 times more sensitive is a conservative guess in our experience, and yet Cayin is probably the most experienced team on this issue in the portable audio industry. As a result, we make the N3Ultra puritans DAP without Wi-Fi or Bluetooth capability.

Can we include a WiFi feature and direct our users to use Wi-Fi while the DAP is not playing back? Yes, been there, and done that with the original N8, we received lots of user complaints over the years, and occasionally returned machines for warranty and repair service simply because users forgot to turn off the WiFi after turning on the WiFi "accidentally" or after the OTA firmware update.

Can we remove the WiFi feature and keep Bluetooth for wireless DAC? Yes, been there, and done that with the N3Pro, and we received user complaints that their sensitive IEM can’t use the wireless DAC features because of Bluetooth interference, in their opinion, when we provide the feature, we have the responsibility to make it workable for everyone.

From a business perspective, we want to sell more N3Ultra, and adding streaming support is the way to go, especially when we have the hardware and operating system to do just that. This is a tough decision because we are limiting streaming support through USB DAC only, but this is our choice to become a responsible brand. If we can’t provide noise-free streaming, we better take that feature away and make sure the JAN6418 timber circuit is performing satisfactorily.

Price, Date, and Availability

The MSRP of N3Ultra is US$529, and the DAP will be available by the second week of April 2024. The actual available date in your local shops might vary as they are subject to logistic and local sales arrangements. We shall host an official livestream session in Mainland China on the evening of 28th March 2024, providing full specifications, functional diagrams, and technical/engineering details of N3Ultra, please mark these dates if you are interested in the N3Ultra.



Image_20240302082827.jpg

I am really interested in this new dap since it uses vacuum tubes. I owned a Sony dap using Android 8 and the Sony didn’t have a balance control. Will the Ultra have a balance control?
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 3:56 PM Post #72 of 659
I am really interested in this new dap since it uses vacuum tubes. I owned a Sony dap using Android 8 and the Sony didn’t have a balance control. Will the Ultra have a balance control?

You mean like if you need more volume for one ear than for the other ear?
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 3:59 PM Post #73 of 659
You mean like if you need more volume for one ear than for the other ear?

Yes, like that. I like to have a balance control to adjust the left/right image on recordings. ✌️
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 5:59 PM Post #74 of 659
My favorite and most used DAP is still the Plenue L, and I don't care less about WiFi or streaming. So the N3ultra fits my needs very well. If I want streaming, my phone with a good pair of wireless IEM/headphones is good enough for me. The tube implementation is definitely tempting, my only doubt is if it has a low noise floor so sensitive IEMs wouldn't be an issue.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 6:08 PM Post #75 of 659
The big question for me is it going to be a big improvement over the N3pro which I still live dearly.
 

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