Alright!!!!Well, my original wording was:
We do not have any Audio Motherboard in our development plan after A02, so unless a very innovative and feasible idea comes up down the road, this is it.
And I said this on Sep 26, 2020, a lot of things happens after 7 months.
I took delivery of DUNU ZEN today and had a very interesting experience that I would like to share. Thank you @bluestorm1992 in advance for being part of this journey with me and sharing his knowledge and experience with these audio gears. It's amazing what C9 can do for some iems.
Cayin C9 is designed for IEMs but I admit, I purchased it to serve double duty for my efficient headphones (Stellia, Z1R, Empyrean, HER10P). Until today, I haven’t appreciated the difference an amp like C9 can do for an iem. Many reviewers classify ZEN as a ‘sensitive’ iem. This leads many to believe that ZEN sips power and all you need is a dongle for them. This couldn’t be farther from the truth in my experience.
Upon first arrival, I unpacked Zen, attached the 3.5mm connector and plugged into my Hiby R8. Upon first listen, I was a bit disappointed. While I could sense INCREDIBLE energy in the mids, the bass just wasn’t there. I quickly played with Hiby’s MSEB and arrived a tuning that was quite a bit better. I quickly discovered ZEN responds very very well to EQ.
I chatted with @bluestorm1992 , I told him ZEN sounds like ‘poking the beast’ but beast was still half asleep. I did respect the tuning direction, very new and I liked the preview I was getting. He asked me to try with C9 as @lumdicks liked C9+Zen pairing. I didn’t see much point at first given the sensitivity of ZEN and low gain on R8 (40 volume) ZEN was plenty loud. But no harm in trying
Attaching 4.4mm ZEN connector, hooking up Eletech Iliad Interconnect (thanks @Eric Chong ) to R8 and I started with the same electronic test track.
HOLY.
MOLY.
MOTHER.
OF.
BALLS.
What???? Everything just clicked. The bass went from ok to electrifying. The power! Treble response was greatly enhanced too and matched the mid energy. The DD’s were pushing so much energy I honestly couldn’t believe it. I had to check if MSEB was active several times throughout my session. MSEB was off, and ZEN was giving me LCD4 levels of energy. The downside. You need something like C9 for this.
What team at @DUNU-Topsound tuned this??? It’s hard to believe the same company that came out with the refinement of Luna has released this RAW unrestrained iem. Why on earth is this called ZEN?? I am definitely not at ease or calm listening to this. This is something else. I still can’t process the sheer energy of what I’m hearing. This is no beast. This is a demon slayer.
“Rip and tear, until it is done.”
The spec is very similar to the Sony VTC6. They are also available unlike the Sony. Yes they work.I have to ask again sorry, is Efest brand tried by anyone, doesn't look like something that'll be great sounding
Working i don't doubt, but i only buy them if they sound as good, i thought somebody has reported that earlier amd i missed it, thanksThe spec is very similar to the Sony VTC6. They are also available unlike the Sony. Yes they work.
Now that we are on this topic, I figure I can share a bit more about the engineering idea behind C9's performance and capability.
A while ago, I had a discussion in Michael's thread with gler about why there is the need to have C9 for IEMs. The common argument is any modern DAP will have plenty of power to drive most of the IEMs, so a better, even independent Amp is no need. However, this certainly does not explain why we see the performance differences between TOTL DAPs and mid-tier DAPs, even from the same brand. Hiby R8 performs better than R6 2020, even though on paper R6 has plenty of power. Also, this difference is clearly not just a tuning thing, but rather an elevation in lots of technical aspects such as soundstage, details, imaging, among many others.
So, I brought this question to Cayin's Wechat group: Why does C9 work with IEMs? If it is not just power, why can a better amp/DAP improve IEM performance? I posted these questions in the group and requested an answer in a non-technical language so that I can understand. I got warm feedback from both their general manager Mr. Liang and several engineers from other brands who happen to be in that group, and I think they explained this well.
According to Mr. Liang, in designing a good amp (or the amp inside a DAP), the focus is no longer just on increasing the max power. Instead, it is in managing transient. What does this mean? He gave an example using cars. So, now the focus is no longer on increasing the max horsepower from the car. Instead, it is in controlling the speed of the car, such that it can accelerate/decelerate precisely as we command. In driving an IEM, the key in music reproduction is those drivers should move in a manner exactly as we want them to be. Achieving this is difficult and requires lots of engineering effort, and this is the design goal behind C9: managing the trainset in a better way.
This in fact may explain why C9 can work with ultra-sensitive IEMs like Andromeda and Zen. For those sensitive IEMs, as I understand it, it is very easy that those units are moving in an undesirable manner (because they are just so sensitive to power). When the units are not moving in the way/frequency we want, the sound gets messed up and the clarity in the music is destroyed.
This also explains why "driving it loud' is NOT the same as "driving it well" - again, it is not about the max output power, but about managing the transient. For this point, I also refer to an excellent explanation offered by another sound engineer @Liberatus in a post in Diana V2's discussion thread.
Certainly, there is still an element of synergy among C9, the source gear, and IEMs. Not all IEMs and DAPs can benefit from C9, although I have found most of them do. Here I just want to offer some interesting background for the design idea behind C9.
Awesome. So micro and macro dynamics are more important criteria for determining the quality of an amp than power. That actually makes sense.Indeed, a lot of users assumes rated power output is the main or even the only factor that matters when come to predict whether a particular amplifier can drive a particular pair of headphone or speaker satisfactory, but the story is far from that.
I don't know the original wording from Liang, but I can figure out a lot of them because we have numerous exchanges along this line in past few year. However my choice of wording might be different, I'll try to share my view in the simplified terms.
To me, DYNAMIC is the most important factor to judge whether a particular amplifier can drive a particular pair of headphone satisfactory. I totally don't believe the calculation that you need x watt to drive a pair of headphone at y db/w sensitivity to certain loudness. The biggest part is whether you can hear all the dynamic of your music passage has called for when your headphone is driven by that particular amplifier. If the dynamic is compress or congested, the amp. is not "strong" enough for that pair of headphone.
So what is transient? To me, this is the ability to reproduce rapidly changing dynamics (electronically, changes in voltage). This is an important but frequently neglected aspects of dynamic. When we talk about dynamic, a lot of audiophiles will look for kickdrum or Taiko in their music collection, that's macro dynamic. However micro dynamic such as the bow movement of a violin is the attribute that "put your right there", and transient is, in many cases carry emotion from the music notes to your heart. So yes, to get the transient right is a very important benchmark in the assessment.
What about "drivers should move in a manner exactly as we want them to be"? Of course that is important, this is the basic conditions to reproduce macro dynamic, micro dynamic and transient of your music correctly. I describe this as control:, whether an amplifier can control a pair of headphone properly. Improper control can be related to electrical characteristic of your amplifier, or it can be a synergy issue (phone out with high output impedance paring with low impedance headphone). It will not only affect dynamic but also affect sound signature to certain extend. The 30Hz square rate and 300Hz square wave curve adopted by Tyll are very good tools to understand this concept (HERE):
Thanks so much for your explanation Andy!!! Greatly appreciate this.Indeed, a lot of users assumes rated power output is the main or even the only factor that matters when come to predict whether a particular amplifier can drive a particular pair of headphone or speaker satisfactory, but the story is far from that.
I don't know the original wording from Liang, but I can figure out a lot of them because we have numerous exchanges along this line in past few year. However my choice of wording might be different, I'll try to share my view in the simplified terms.
To me, DYNAMIC is the most important factor to judge whether a particular amplifier can drive a particular pair of headphone satisfactory. I totally don't believe the calculation that you need x watt to drive a pair of headphone at y db/w sensitivity to certain loudness. The biggest part is whether you can hear all the dynamic of your music passage has called for when your headphone is driven by that particular amplifier. If the dynamic is compress or congested, the amp. is not "strong" enough for that pair of headphone.
So what is transient? To me, this is the ability to reproduce rapidly changing dynamics (electronically, changes in voltage). This is an important but frequently neglected aspects of dynamic. When we talk about dynamic, a lot of audiophiles will look for kickdrum or Taiko in their music collection, that's macro dynamic. However micro dynamic such as the bow movement of a violin is the attribute that "put your right there", and transient is, in many cases carry emotion from the music notes to your heart. So yes, to get the transient right is a very important benchmark in the assessment.
What about "drivers should move in a manner exactly as we want them to be"? Of course that is important, this is the basic conditions to reproduce macro dynamic, micro dynamic and transient of your music correctly. I describe this as control:, whether an amplifier can control a pair of headphone properly. Improper control can be related to electrical characteristic of your amplifier, or it can be a synergy issue (phone out with high output impedance paring with low impedance headphone). It will not only affect dynamic but also affect sound signature to certain extend. The 30Hz square rate and 300Hz square wave curve adopted by Tyll are very good tools to understand this concept (HERE):
Indeed. I think part of the challenge is that power rating is something that can be easily measured and is usually available for most of the products, while the ability to manage dynamics does not seem to be something that can be easily measured or reflected by the numbers. Maybe there is such a measure that I just don't know about? If that is the case it will be aweson, cause this means that we should now expand the set of things we look at when considering purchasing an Amp.
I have to totally agreeIndeed, a lot of users assumes rated power output is the main or even the only factor that matters when come to predict whether a particular amplifier can drive a particular pair of headphone or speaker satisfactory, but the story is far from that.
I don't know the original wording from Liang, but I can figure out a lot of them because we have numerous exchanges along this line in past few year. However my choice of wording might be different, I'll try to share my view in the simplified terms.
To me, DYNAMIC is the most important factor to judge whether a particular amplifier can drive a particular pair of headphone satisfactory. I totally don't believe the calculation that you need x watt to drive a pair of headphone at y db/w sensitivity to certain loudness. The biggest part is whether you can hear all the dynamic of your music passage has called for when your headphone is driven by that particular amplifier. If the dynamic is compress or congested, the amp. is not "strong" enough for that pair of headphone.
So what is transient? To me, this is the ability to reproduce rapidly changing dynamics (electronically, changes in voltage). This is an important but frequently neglected aspects of dynamic. When we talk about dynamic, a lot of audiophiles will look for kickdrum or Taiko in their music collection, that's macro dynamic. However micro dynamic such as the bow movement of a violin is the attribute that "put your right there", and transient is, in many cases carry emotion from the music notes to your heart. So yes, to get the transient right is a very important benchmark in the assessment.
What about "drivers should move in a manner exactly as we want them to be"? Of course that is important, this is the basic conditions to reproduce macro dynamic, micro dynamic and transient of your music correctly. I describe this as control:, whether an amplifier can control a pair of headphone properly. Improper control can be related to electrical characteristic of your amplifier, or it can be a synergy issue (phone out with high output impedance paring with low impedance headphone). It will not only affect dynamic but also affect sound signature to certain extend. The 30Hz square rate and 300Hz square wave curve adopted by Tyll are very good tools to understand this concept (HERE):
I feel like my audiophile IQ went up by 2 points after this discussion. It makes up for the 2 points I lost in the cables discussion.
They are very similar spec batteries and sound the same in my opinion.Working i don't doubt, but i only buy them if they sound as good, i thought somebody has reported that earlier amd i missed it, thanks
Fortunately, 18650 batteries are generally not expensive (aside from the current availability issue), so it may be part of the fun to “roll batteries” if one gets curious.
This is much more affordable compared to something like rolling Op Amps or cables.
What charger do you have?
Or rolling tubes and records.Fortunately, 18650 batteries are generally not expensive (aside from the current availability issue), so it may be part of the fun to “roll batteries” if one gets curious.
![20240807_162433[1].jpg](https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/12463575.jpg)
